Dealing with depression - suicidal thoughts - Join the conversation (including helpline details)

[Lili]

Had a bad tractor accident back in early April and got put on co-codadamol but it didn't work enough then liquid morphine then tramadol to get pain relief.
Felt kinda knocked out with the tramadol but got pain relief but after six weeks I wanted off it as started to feel awful.
Problem is I also take venlafaxin and feel absolutely terrible now. I've stopped the tramadol tried some codamol but feeling awful.
Anybody came off this mixture and how did you feel?

Very sorry to hear about your accident. It might be a good idea to go back to your GP as soon as possible and discuss your problems and pain management. Explain about wanting to come off the tramadol. Ask him/her if possible to refer you to a Pain clinic (usually at your local hospital) where they can also give you support and advice.

 

[Christoph1945]

Good afternoon Hillside,

sorry to hear about the tractor accident and your injury but am pleased that you have chosen to share with us.
I have never had occasion to use the drug mix that you write of but once, many years ago, suffered severe withdrawal symptoms after the abrupt cessation of 'prescribed' high strength tranquilisers.

The best port of call, as has already been advised, is your GP.

When you say that you are feeling terrible, can you describe in more detail how you feel; it may help prep you for talking to the doc?

Chris

 

[Greenbeast]

I've been reading (listening to) another useful book recently. I'm about half way through but feel it's worth sharing.

The Compassionate Mind by Paul Gilbert

I'm finding it hard to boil down it's essence right this minute, but i think it's good for someone who is on a path of enlightenment about our minds, or feels like their mental well-being isn't where it should be. I've just reached Part II where he talks you through exercises that can aid with joyfulness and mental clarity, essentially lots of mindfulness and meditation, which i recommend anyway, this just might be a good introduction for someone.

 

[Christoph1945]

Sounds like an interesting read.

By the way, anyone seen or heard from Buffy or AliceCow? I trust that the absence of posts from either indicated that they are both presently doing well.

 

[Flash]

I find reading this thread very helpful. I have recently upped my efforts to positively improve my situation and have done a lot of studying which has delivered some really useful nuggets which have given me a significant boost of late.

Don't be put off by the justgiving location, in this instance its just a platform to share this valuable information.

I published them here: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/andrew-randall2 to share them with others. There is also a list of really inspiring videos / Ted Talks / books at the end which are well worth watching.

One of my favourite extracts is this:

7. Character development is as important as intellectual development: Thoughts become words, Words become actions, Actions become habits, Habits become character, Character becomes destiny

 

[House of Commons]

We thought this might be a good place to post some extracts from a debate in the House of Commons yesterday on suicide in the farming community. (Full transcript available on Hansard)

Leading the debate, Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire), said:

"The farming community, not just in my constituency but right across the country, is tight knit, hard working and supportive of one other. We all know that farming can be a lonely occupation, that the working area is often remote, and that isolated working is clearly the norm and certainly not the exception."

"Regrettably, when looking at the figures of the National Farmers Union, I found that suicide among farmers is one of the highest of any occupation. It is male-dominated, especially for those under the age of 40. Statistics prove this, but, sadly, every statistic is not just a number but a human being and suicide has devastating effects on a family, a community and an industry. Such a loss has an effect not just immediately but for years, if not decades, after."

MPs discussed the impact of organisations like the DPJ Foundation and Young Farmers Clubs:

Jim Shannon (DUP - Strangford)

"The Young Farmers Clubs of Ulster—our equivalent in Northern Ireland—are very active in providing social occasions and leisure activities, which are an outlet for the clear anxiety among farmers. They are very caring clubs and do great work. Young farmers clubs are very much the same in other parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."

Chris Davies:

"The DPJ Foundation is a charity that has come to my attention only since my area has been rocked by recent events. It was set up in 2016 by Emma Picton-Jones from west Wales, whose husband Daniel, who was under 40, tragically took his own life and left Emma a young widow and mother of two small children. The foundation aims to support people from rural communities with poor mental health, especially men in the agriculture sector. It does an amazing job of providing swift agriculture-focused support, and the service is entirely funded by fundraising."

Other MPs spoke of the pressures facing farmers, and the availability of services for them:

Chris Elmore (Labour - Ogmore:

"Whenever I talk to younger farmers or owners who have been in the industry for 40 or 50 years, it comes across that people often do not understand the pressures facing the farming industry, the farmers working in it and their wives and children. They do not understand the expectation to be up at dawn and go to bed when the sun goes down, with a constant merry-go-round of pressure. They are running businesses, but most people do not think of farms as businesses, and they have all those same pressures."

Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat - Orkney and Shetland)

"We have to recognise that suicide is the last and tragic link in a chain that starts with poor mental health not being treated because there are not adequate services for the people who rely on them. That is very often the case, because too many of the mental health services we rely on in country areas are designed by people in towns and cities who do not have the breadth of understanding of what is needed. On this, as on so many other issues, everything I see makes me think that if a decision can be taken in the local community, that should absolutely be done."

Responding on behalf of the Government, Robert Goodwill (The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food) stated:

"It is widely acknowledged that there is an increased risk of suicide among people working across a range of agricultural occupations, compared with the general population, and data from the Office for National Statistics demonstrates that. There are many factors influencing wellbeing in the farming community, but as a Minister and a farmer, I am committed to ensuring that, as we prepare for new agricultural policies in the future, we do what we can to reduce negative impacts and, where possible, improve health and wellbeing across the sector"
[...]
"DEFRA works closely with the Department of Health and Social Care on this important issue. In 2016, NHS England published “The Five Year Forward View for Mental Health”, and in January, NHS England published the NHS long-term plan, which sets out a comprehensive expansion of mental health services, with funding for mental health growing by at least £2.3 billion a year by 2023-24 "
[...]
"As we have heard, loneliness is a key contributor to poor mental health in rural communities. That is why the Government have committed £11 million to the building connections fund to help bring communities together. DEFRA also gives an annual grant of nearly £2 million to the Action with Communities in Rural England network to help keep rural communities vibrant, active and connected."

Read the full transcript of the debate on Hansard.

 

[DrWazzock]

We thought this might be a good place to post some extracts from a debate in the House of Commons yesterday on suicide in the farming community. (Full transcript available on Hansard)

Leading the debate, Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire), said:



MPs discussed the impact of organisations like the DPJ Foundation and Young Farmers Clubs:

Jim Shannon (DUP - Strangford)



Chris Davies:



Other MPs spoke of the pressures facing farmers, and the availability of services for them:

Chris Elmore (Labour - Ogmore:



Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat - Orkney and Shetland)



Responding on behalf of the Government, Robert Goodwill (The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food) stated:



Read the full transcript of the debate on Hansard.

Nice words but always remember that there is more often than not an outside pressure that just adds that last straw to the camels back.

And generally speaking HMG or the bank is most often the one that adds that last straw.

So while warm words are welcome the government and its agencies would do well to examine their own treatment of farmers from the point of view of mental health.

RPA incompetence and also the confrontational approach taken by Natural England to farming are just two examples where the government could help farmers state of mind by taking a more helpful attitude.

Making tax digital has also played its part in increasing stress and worry especially for older farmers with precious little by way of help to set up new systems without yet more expense.

I could go on but I'll leave it at that, and just ask that the government considers the impact that their politicies and legislation have not just on farmers but also on workers and professionals in many other industries.

 

[DrWazzock]

Sometimes I just seem to have run of bad luck, then sometimes some good luck. There really is no accounting for it. It seems random and best to just roll with it.

 

[Christoph1945]

Sounds about right Doc.

Our lad used to say 'Dad, sh!t happens, get over it'. The Christian says 'Let go and let God'. The cabbalist says 'Resist reaction and light will enter into your being'.

There is nothing good or bad, only that we see it as so.

Chris

 

[Christoph1945]

Yesterday I bought a copy of Farmers Guardian, which headlined 'Rural Charities At Breaking Point' and the contents set me thinking about many of the things that we have learned in here. Those of us who have been through the psychological pulveriser and survived can be of help, support, and encouragement to others.

As I read some of the material I wondered 'why don't all the farming publications have an agony uncles/aunts'?

 

[Juggler]

Sounds about right Doc.

Our lad used to say 'Dad, sh!t happens, get over it'. The Christian says 'Let go and let God'. The cabbalist says 'Resist reaction and light will enter into your being'.

There is nothing good or bad, only that we see it as so.

Chris

The above is so true but it's difficult to stop that worry and anxiety when the solids hit the air conditioning and things are going wrong...….

Another version...

Another version put eloquently by Captain Jack Sparrow...

 

[Christoph1945]

Yep, when one is in deep, deep, psychological doodoo; it's more than difficult to see clearly! And generally one is caught on the wrong foot by the events!

 

[Christoph1945]

I have, for a long time now, kept banging on about diet and our psychological emotions. It is surprising just how many people don't realise the effect our diets can have on us. It was many, many, years before I discovered how gluten can effect one's vision; not eyesight. Problems can appear far greater when tanked up on gluten and reactions become more acute. I have often likened it to carrying a double barrelled shotgun with a hair trigger and no safety. Things are fine, until it is knocked or dropped!

I am convinced that the food/psychological effect is highlighted in Jewish scripture with the story of Adam and Eve and may even be underscored by the story of Jesus' betrayal.

 

[DrWazzock]

When my cattle disappeared into the woods last weekend and I lost track of them completely, I finally gave up looking for them after about 2 hours wandering through the wood looking for sight or sound of them. The wood was so dense and dark I was nearly lost myself. The whole situation seemed so hopeless. I started to wonder if I should even carry on farming as it was my fault they had escaped. I had let the business down, the carttle down and myself down. Everything went through my head. How would we cope with the financial loss? What if they got onto a main road and collided with a vehicle? What would the insurance company say? What would DEFRA and the cattle movement system require?

And I thought to myself, say what you like, this for us is quite a disaster. No amount of philosophising would get round the fact I'd screwed up big time. No amount of telling myself "it's only matters how we perceive things" would alter the fact that this was a major loss and needless waste. If they had been struck by lightning it would have been easy to deal with. I wouldn't have blamed myself for that, but this mess was down to me and that made it feel a thousand times worse.

Anyway, by some miracle the cattle came crashing back out of the woods and we got them back into the shed. We were lucky, very lucky indeed, but this episode, which is by no means as bad as what many have experienced, showed me a glimpse of that feeling of deep despair that can overtake you quite suddenly and unexpectedly when events take a serious downturn and you slip stunned down into the abyss.

From what I can see, it must take real strength and fortitude to come back from serious setbacks, and while we can all say, myself included, that it's only how we perceive things that matters, the reality is that certain setbacks and downturns take a hell of a lot of resilience, courage and strength to cope with and those involved have my utmost respect and empathy.

Not quite sure what I'm trying to say really.

Yes, to some extent problems are only as bad as we perceive them to be, but then again some problems really are bad however we try to perceive them and those struggling with them perhaps deserve just a bit more sympathy than just being told to change their perception, though I do agree that our attitude to problems and setbacks makes all the difference as to how we deal with them and move on from them.

 

[Greenbeast]

When my cattle disappeared into the woods last weekend and I lost track of them completely, I finally gave up looking for them after about 2 hours wandering through the wood looking for sight or sound of them. The wood was so dense and dark I was nearly lost myself. The whole situation seemed so hopeless. I started to wonder if I should even carry on farming as it was my fault they had escaped. I had let the business down, the carttle down and myself down. Everything went through my head. How would we cope with the financial loss? What if they got onto a main road and collided with a vehicle? What would the insurance company say? What would DEFRA and the cattle movement system require?

And I thought to myself, say what you like, this for us is quite a disaster. No amount of philosophising would get round the fact I'd screwed up big time. No amount of telling myself "it's only matters how we perceive things" would alter the fact that this was a major loss and needless waste. If they had been struck by lightning it would have been easy to deal with. I wouldn't have blamed myself for that, but this mess was down to me and that made it feel a thousand times worse.

Anyway, by some miracle the cattle came crashing back out of the woods and we got them back into the shed. We were lucky, very lucky indeed, but this episode, which is by no means as bad as what many have experienced, showed me a glimpse of that feeling of deep despair that can overtake you quite suddenly and unexpectedly when events take a serious downturn and you slip stunned down into the abyss.

From what I can see, it must take real strength and fortitude to come back from serious setbacks, and while we can all say, myself included, that it's only how we perceive things that matters, the reality is that certain setbacks and downturns take a hell of a lot of resilience, courage and strength to cope with and those involved have my utmost respect and empathy.

Not quite sure what I'm trying to say really.

Yes, to some extent problems are only as bad as we perceive them to be, but then again some problems really are bad however we try to perceive them and those struggling with them perhaps deserve just a bit more sympathy than just being told to change their perception, though I do agree that our attitude to problems and setbacks makes all the difference as to how we deal with them and move on from them.

That is a good post, I've been there a few times. Sometimes in the moment I can say I shouldn't be bothered, but I can't get my mind round to it

 

[Juggler]

When my cattle disappeared into the woods last weekend and I lost track of them completely, I finally gave up looking for them after about 2 hours wandering through the wood looking for sight or sound of them. The wood was so dense and dark I was nearly lost myself. The whole situation seemed so hopeless. I started to wonder if I should even carry on farming as it was my fault they had escaped. I had let the business down, the carttle down and myself down. Everything went through my head. How would we cope with the financial loss? What if they got onto a main road and collided with a vehicle? What would the insurance company say? What would DEFRA and the cattle movement system require?

And I thought to myself, say what you like, this for us is quite a disaster. No amount of philosophising would get round the fact I'd screwed up big time. No amount of telling myself "it's only matters how we perceive things" would alter the fact that this was a major loss and needless waste. If they had been struck by lightning it would have been easy to deal with. I wouldn't have blamed myself for that, but this mess was down to me and that made it feel a thousand times worse.

Anyway, by some miracle the cattle came crashing back out of the woods and we got them back into the shed. We were lucky, very lucky indeed, but this episode, which is by no means as bad as what many have experienced, showed me a glimpse of that feeling of deep despair that can overtake you quite suddenly and unexpectedly when events take a serious downturn and you slip stunned down into the abyss.

From what I can see, it must take real strength and fortitude to come back from serious setbacks, and while we can all say, myself included, that it's only how we perceive things that matters, the reality is that certain setbacks and downturns take a hell of a lot of resilience, courage and strength to cope with and those involved have my utmost respect and empathy.

Not quite sure what I'm trying to say really.

Yes, to some extent problems are only as bad as we perceive them to be, but then again some problems really are bad however we try to perceive them and those struggling with them perhaps deserve just a bit more sympathy than just being told to change their perception, though I do agree that our attitude to problems and setbacks makes all the difference as to how we deal with them and move on from them.

Sorry to hear that and glad it came good in the end.

I wasn't trying to make light of someone's problems by suggesting its the way we look at the problem and not the actual problem that causes us anguish, and I apologise if it came across that way.
I'm a good one to talk, I can't even take my own advice and have slipped into the abyss as you so effectively put it many times over the years, mostly to do with cattle, sheep, the weather and finances...that awful feeling that grabs you by your guts and squeezes hard, leaving you breathless and terrified is a god awful feeling which I know too well, this feeling overtook me on several occasions over the years and it's scary how quickly you find yourself spinning at the very edge of the precipice, to fall is both enticing and terrifying, I decided I could not put myself through it any more four years ago and sold my livestock, it was with an incredibly heavy heart but it was the right decision, I had bred pedigree cattle for 22 years and sheep for around half that time.
I now rent my land and have always worked a full time job away from the farm (hence the name) and so all I was doing was concentrating on the 'day job' and leaving the farming for another day, I still have the land, my family and my sanity, for which I am eternally grateful.

Those little soundbites I posted are merely what I am aspiring to do myself, I did not mean to be preachy and apologise If I came across like that.
Our minds can be a frightening place to be sometimes, I hope to one day be able to break free from the shackles of anxiety but it's a long slow process, all I can do is put one foot in front of the other and keep moving in the right direction.

 

[Greenbeast]

Sorry to hear that and glad it came good in the end.

I wasn't trying to make light of someone's problems by suggesting its the way we look at the problem and not the actual problem that causes us anguish, and I apologise if it came across that way.
I'm a good one to talk, I can't even take my own advice and have slipped into the abyss as you so effectively put it many times over the years, mostly to do with cattle, sheep, the weather and finances...that awful feeling that grabs you by your guts and squeezes hard, leaving you breathless and terrified is a god awful feeling which I know too well, this feeling overtook me on several occasions over the years and it's scary how quickly you find yourself spinning at the very edge of the precipice, to fall is both enticing and terrifying, I decided I could not put myself through it any more four years ago and sold my livestock, it was with an incredibly heavy heart but it was the right decision, I had bred pedigree cattle for 22 years and sheep for around half that time.
I now rent my land and have always worked a full time job away from the farm (hence the name) and so all I was doing was concentrating on the 'day job' and leaving the farming for another day, I still have the land, my family and my sanity, for which I am eternally grateful.

Those little soundbites I posted are merely what I am aspiring to do myself, I did not mean to be preachy and apologise If I came across like that.
Our minds can be a frightening place to be sometimes, I hope to one day be able to break free from the shackles of anxiety but it's a long slow process, all I can do is put one foot in front of the other and keep moving in the right direction.

No you were spot on with your quotes. @DrWazzock would be the first to agree I'm sure.

One way that has helped me understand it recently is think of it like this :
Is the thing that annoyed you universal? I.e. Would literally anybody in the world find it annoying?
If no (and I challenge you to find a situation that is) then it must be an internal issue.

I don't know if that makes sense. If you could find one single person in all the world that wasn't phased by a particular problem then it must not really be an absolute problem.

 

[Greenbeast]

I will add however, that still doesn't help me in the heat of the moment

 

[Juggler]

I will add however, that still doesn't help me in the heat of the moment

Nor me! I'm fantastic at disasterising a situation, I can go from encountering a problem, or even discover the possibility of a problem to the worst possible outcome in 5 seconds flat, quite a talent... I'm amazed daily that I still manage to function at a reasonably high level.

 

[DrWazzock]

Sorry to hear that and glad it came good in the end.

I wasn't trying to make light of someone's problems by suggesting its the way we look at the problem and not the actual problem that causes us anguish, and I apologise if it came across that way.
I'm a good one to talk, I can't even take my own advice and have slipped into the abyss as you so effectively put it many times over the years, mostly to do with cattle, sheep, the weather and finances...that awful feeling that grabs you by your guts and squeezes hard, leaving you breathless and terrified is a god awful feeling which I know too well, this feeling overtook me on several occasions over the years and it's scary how quickly you find yourself spinning at the very edge of the precipice, to fall is both enticing and terrifying, I decided I could not put myself through it any more four years ago and sold my livestock, it was with an incredibly heavy heart but it was the right decision, I had bred pedigree cattle for 22 years and sheep for around half that time.
I now rent my land and have always worked a full time job away from the farm (hence the name) and so all I was doing was concentrating on the 'day job' and leaving the farming for another day, I still have the land, my family and my sanity, for which I am eternally grateful.

Those little soundbites I posted are merely what I am aspiring to do myself, I did not mean to be preachy and apologise If I came across like that.
Our minds can be a frightening place to be sometimes, I hope to one day be able to break free from the shackles of anxiety but it's a long slow process, all I can do is put one foot in front of the other and keep moving in the right direction.

No apology necessary. I fully understand what you were saying about our perception being half the battle to overcoming problems.

All I was clumsily trying to say is that we shouldn't be surprised if some problems leave us reeling for a bit until we pick ourselves up and get on again.

It's coming to a situation here where we are seriously considering getting rid of the stock as small things with them can escalate so easily and suddenly you have spent a week working on them that you hadn't planned for. We seem to need to get the sheep in for something at least two days a week. Lambing, vaccinating, foot bathing, worming, bolussing, dagging, shearing, fly treatment and weighing and drawing out seem to merge into one long stint without respite at this time of year. Then there is forage to get, spraying the arable every week, equipment to get ready for harvest, property to maintain.

It's getting silly really. Time to let some out or let something go so the job gets back to an enjoyable rather than an overstretched pace.