Dealing with depression - suicidal thoughts - Join the conversation (including helpline details)

[czechmate]

Woo hoo…… it’s March

 

[Two Tone]

Woo hoo…… it’s March

Yep.
New month, same old weather:

Same fecking stresses!

 

[Holsteinfriesian90]

Woo hoo…… it’s March

I hate March.

 

[czechmate]

I hate March.

i really don’t like winter, so to make it to March is always a great relief to me.
i love Spring

 

[Two Tone]

You can't do anything to really combat cortisol, nor would you want to (this isn't true, there are medicines for this but that's a separate subject). It is best to explain these things at a brass tacks level again as I did earlier. So our question is: what has evolution designed this machine to do?

As with most things in the body hormones like cortisol are controlled to an optimum level so they stay within the sweet spot: not too much, not too little. Too little cortisol is a feature of Addison's disease which brings problems of it's own. Cortisol is secreted into the blood by a particular part of your adrenal glands, both of which are under the control of the 'government' of the body- the brain, and this government has a very stern guy whose orders are carried out without question- the pituitary. He might be small in size but he can give a hell of a speech to the workers.

I want you to imagine we are all living in the great plains of what will one day be called Africa, about 2.5 million years into the past- about as early as experts suspect our species really became a separate entity from our descendants.
So adrenaline is a hormone the effect of which you can feel nearly instantly- it is secreted into your blood by the adrenal glands. It's the hormone that will keep you alive for the next few minutes when confronted by that Sabretooth tiger which is lurking behind that rock over there. Even when the shock/fear is gone, you can still feel it's effects because it has a plasma half life of about 2-3 minutes. This hormone binds to a lot of stuff but principally it affects the receptors in your heart, your airways and your blood vessels. It is designed to maximise cardiac output, make breathing as effective as it will ever be and maintain your blood pressure so as to give your skeletal muscles every chance they have to fight that big moggy with the teeth or run and flee from it to live another day.

Cortisol, however, is a different kettle of fish. Suppose there is no sabretooth tiger but suppose instead you and your tribe experience great hardship. The rains have not come for many months. There is no game to be readily found. You have walked many miles every day in all directions but are limited by how much water you can physically carry. Your starving. What precious little edible vegetation you can find is sparse and only partly digestible. You're under great physiological (and likely psychological) stress.

This is where cortisol plays a part. The hypothalamus is the region of the brain where your nervous system and endocrine systems are interfaced- this is the central committee who really do run the show. The pituitary is told to give a little speech and cortisol is secreted by the adrenal glands, acting under orders only from a slightly different region to where adrenaline comes from. Cortisol is released into the blood but unlike adrenaline, it is completely fat soluble and so can pass into cells very readily. It does this because the receptors it needs to bind to are deep within cells and it is going to signal to cells to produce a lot of materials they wouldn't ordinarily make. By changing what instructions the factory workers are given, cells begin to produce materials with differing priorities to normal. Because cortisol influences gene expression, it takes days and weeks to make the changes your body needs to survive longer term stress and get the cells singing from the same hymn sheet and making more of what the economy needs to ensure it's survival in the medium term.

Cortisol also acts to inhibit the release of insulin whilst encouraging the secretion of glucagon. As a result of this your blood sugar will rise above what would be considered your normal level. Because there is less insulin about, the workers (cells) paradoxically have less access/permission to dip a drinking straw into the blood to gather up the materials they need to sustain themselves but in the communist paradise that is the human body sometimes the workers have to share the pain to protect the motherland.

Meanwhile it will also inhibit normal growth and repair processes. These will take a backseat because they are metabolically expensive and growing another 2 inches of skeleton won't help you if you're potentially going to starve to death in the next 3 weeks, bone formation is thus halted- less enzymes about to make it happen, less cells about actively forming bone. Besides, if the economy is starving there is likely to be a shortage of calcium about to make new bone so those concreting boys become inactive.

The immune system is also told to take a holiday. for the same reasons- it's no good trying to be totally immune to every infectious disease in the face of imminent starvation. Cortisol does this by turning off your T-helper cells and so the more clever (and expensive) part of the immune system is downregulated. Probably the simpler innate immune system is given a bump up but these particular border force agents aren't the brightest of the bunch so I wouldn't expect miracles from them.

Fat and proteins are broken down and their constituent parts dumped into the blood to aid survival- principally for the government (brain) which will enjoy all the usual luxuries it has come to expect from this economy. As one of the higher mammals, it is logical that the brain surviving is quite important and it might also be useful in aiding your survival because you might be able to think your way out of a problem. So the stores of fats become mobilised (this creates cholesterol which everyone seems to want to rave about on another thread but that's another story for another day) and the supply of amino acids is increased as well- if there is nothing to eat then you can break down muscle cells to maintain all the necessary functions of the body. You'll lose weight/muscle mass and strength but again, it's no good being Mr Olympia if you are going to starve in 2 weeks- some members of this society are thus considered expendable if it means the survival of the motherland.

Cortisol is also thought to bind (weakly) to some of the receptors adrenaline binds to. This probably serves to maintain your blood pressure even at a time when your body would probably prefer to let things drop back. It does this by binding to receptors in your kidneys and make them work harder to retain sodium (and because water follow salt, you retain more water) whilst excreting more potassium (recall that potassium is kept inside cells, when cells are disposed of lots of potassium is released). So you'll conserve more water for the motherland and hopefully it will rain sooner rather than later.

How does psychological stress factor into this?

Well in my other post above, you can recall that the pre-frontal cortex was doing all the intermediate processing because it was the fat controller in the brain. Turns out he has a hot line to the hypothalamus as well which means he has an indirect control over the workers and can direct them to do his bidding. In this system the mind is the body and the body is the mind. The little diagram below should illustrate this.

So what's bad about too much cortisol? Too much cortisol is what happens in what we term Cushing's disease. If your body is drowned in the stuff, you'll lose muscle mass and because of all that sugar and nutrient in your blood, you can accumulate fat around your waist. You're likely going to be diabetic and your blood will be awash with glucose that your cells might not have permission to access. Push someone with diabetes hard enough physiologically and they can enter a more serious condition because their cells are forced to switch to ketones as fuel and burning those produces a lactic acidosis which is no joke and can be very dangerous as it changes the pH of the blood. You're also going to be much more susceptible to infection, wounds will not heal well at all, your reproductive system will be dysregulated and your bone density will decrease. You heart is going to have to work hard 24/7 as well so that will be one part of your body that does grow bigger and stronger- which in the world of the heart is not actually a good thing. The thicker the walls of the heart, the less effective it is at filling and the less efficient a pump it is. Oh, and because the mind and body are interlinked, you can experience a negative impact on your mood, also.

In the long term then, cortisol is not really a good thing and we should all seek to lead happier and less stressful lives because of the effects I have outlined above. Happier people generally live longer and cortisol is likely one of the reasons why.



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Thanks for the in depth technical breakdown of what Cortisol is, why we have it and to some extent, need(ed) it.
But it is wrong insofar that it says you cannot do anything about it.
And for some of us, there is a real need to do something about it. Especially, some of us who are on this thread!

There are various supplements mentioned in my post 10,891, that might help and for those who suffer from various stresses and ailments brought on by Cortisol induced stress. I’ll also add Melatonin to that list. Especially if combined with even a multi vitamin over for 50 year old supplement. However some of the bits with, may need higher dose, such as Magnesium, Zinc, D3 and B1.

IMO, it really is rather important to many of us that some sort of relief to Cortisol is at least attempted.
Because especially as age increase, Cortisol induced stress, the hypertension, heart disease, insulin resistance and inflammation it all causes, is a killer!

So rather than paste what Cortisol is, why we have it and how it works, please can you tell us in a concise manner, how we can control it?
TIA.

 

[DrWazzock]

I’ve been struggling with cortisol all my life.
It could be genetic. They managed to breed the stress gene out of pigs locally. They are relatively calm now and grow better. They aren’t agitated.
I was traumatised as a baby by a Vulcan bomber which climbed almost vertically over my pram which had been left outside. I didn’t sleep for weeks and was frightened of the the slightest rumble which wasn’t good as we lived under the flight path to an RAF base and they’d be taking off and landing into the night. I only managed to rationalise the fear of the noise when my parents took me to an air display but still I feel just the slightest pang of terror when I hear aircraft rumbling noise then think it’s just an aeroplane. Do these early experiences hard wire response mechanisms? I know that too many negative experiences “taken to heart” can lead to almost irreversible depression so best try to find some positive ones. Presently dumping a lot of old stress inducing machinery that I don’t really need. Folks think I should keep it for posterity but why? Just to remind myself off the grief and expense it’s caused me over thirty years? No. Leave it. Move on.

 

[DrWazzock]

That’s the funny thing about museums of old equipment etc. Folk who have never had to use it think it’s great. If you have had to rely on those brutal old things for your living then you don’t really want to see them again. At best you are ambivalent. At worst you hate those old machines. Poorly designed crap with no thought for driver welfare.

 

[czechmate]

I have just scraped two quadrant 1200 balers. A bit bitter sweet as i am thousands out of pocket but they were nasty things. 1200’s we’re probably crap when they were new?

 

[choochter]

That’s the funny thing about museums of old equipment etc. Folk who have never had to use it think it’s great. If you have had to rely on those brutal old things for your living then you don’t really want to see them again. At best you are ambivalent. At worst you hate those old machines. Poorly designed crap with no thought for driver welfare.

Having spent the last fortnight at the wheel of an IH 574, and being uncomfortable, while thinking this must have been a huge step up from walking with a horse all day.
Thankfully now back in the mf3060 with all its mod cons.

 

[Lazy Eric]

I hate March.

Me too, worst month of the year

 

[DrWazzock]

Yeah a Lincolnshire spring. Three months of cold easterlies then summer begins in June.

 

[Red Fred]

That’s the funny thing about museums of old equipment etc. Folk who have never had to use it think it’s great. If you have had to rely on those brutal old things for your living then you don’t really want to see them again. At best you are ambivalent. At worst you hate those old machines. Poorly designed crap with no thought for driver welfare.

My sister came out with a sensible viewpoint when an Australian rellie spent ages researching the family tree - "They aren't that interested when they visit us and we're alive, so if they actually met any of the dead ancestors in person, they would run a mile."
I think there was a quote along the lines of "The main reason for The Good Old Days is a bad memory."

 

[ollie989898]

Thanks for the in depth technical breakdown of what Cortisol is, why we have it and to some extent, need(ed) it.
But it is wrong insofar that it says you cannot do anything about it.
And for some of us, there is a real need to do something about it. Especially, some of us who are on this thread!

There are various supplements mentioned in my post 10,891, that might help and for those who suffer from various stresses and ailments brought on by Cortisol induced stress. I’ll also add Melatonin to that list. Especially if combined with even a multi vitamin over for 50 year old supplement. However some of the bits with, may need higher dose, such as Magnesium, Zinc, D3 and B1.

IMO, it really is rather important to many of us that some sort of relief to Cortisol is at least attempted.
Because especially as age increase, Cortisol induced stress, the hypertension, heart disease, insulin resistance and inflammation it all causes, is a killer!

So rather than paste what Cortisol is, why we have it and how it works, please can you tell us in a concise manner, how we can control it?
TIA.

Cortisol is needed. Without it you will get into a lot of grief- Addisonian crisis.

Cortisol is controlled by homeostasis. If you try to meddle with it the body will adapt in various ways, just as it does with a lot of drugs. Over time you don't get the same response. This is why some people can become spectacularly ill if you suddenly withdraw their long term steroid medication.

All the talk of vitamins and minerals etc- I wouldn't subscribe too heavily on any of it if I were you, those concoctions are being peddled heavily because there is some serious dollar attached to them despite a rather weak or inconclusive evidence base.

As I said, do your best to lead a happy life and you should live longer as a result.

 

[DrWazzock]

My sister came out with a sensible viewpoint when an Australian rellie spent ages researching the family tree - "They aren't that interested when they visit us and we're alive, so if they actually met any of the dead ancestors in person, they would run a mile."
I think there was a quote along the lines of "The main reason for The Good Old Days is a bad memory."

Old relatives that I can just remember, Great great Aunts and Uncles etc born in the 1800’s were stern and grumpy old things. They lived on stuff like hare and rooks that my grandfather shot for them. They thought it the height of extravagance to buy groceries in anything less than four stone bags and would be tut tutting at my mother for doing so. They insisted on wearing shirts with detachable collars so the whole shirt wasn’t wasted when the collar wore out. Sourcing such clothing in the 1980’s wasn’t easy!

 

[Two Tone]

Cortisol is needed. Without it you will get into a lot of grief- Addisonian crisis.

Cortisol is controlled by homeostasis. If you try to meddle with it the body will adapt in various ways, just as it does with a lot of drugs. Over time you don't get the same response. This is why some people can become spectacularly ill if you suddenly withdraw their long term steroid medication.

All the talk of vitamins and minerals etc- I wouldn't subscribe too heavily on any of it if I were you, those concoctions are being peddled heavily because there is some serious dollar attached to them despite a rather weak or inconclusive evidence base.

As I said, do your best to lead a happy life and you should live longer as a result.

FFS! You clearly do not know what you are talking about and are just plagiarising information to suit your own misguided argument.

As for doing your best to lead a happy life, you really ought to know better!
That isn’t always possible for everybody as you well know.

I’ll not bother to ask you questions any more, for risk of you in effect winding people up, therefore increasing their Cortisol, presumably for your own satisfaction!
How fecking sad!

 

[ollie989898]

FFS! You clearly do not know what you are talking about and are just plagiarising information to suit your own misguided argument.

As for doing your best to lead a happy life, you really ought to know better!
That isn’t always possible for everybody as you well know.

I’ll not bother to ask you questions any more, for risk of you in effect winding people up, therefore increasing their Cortisol, presumably for your own satisfaction!
How fecking sad!

You asked a question, I answered it. That you didn't like the answer isn't a failing of mine!

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Having spent the last fortnight at the wheel of an IH 574, and being uncomfortable, while thinking this must have been a huge step up from walking with a horse all day.
Thankfully now back in the mf3060 with all its mod cons.

Our 674 was a big improvement on the Ford 4000 in some ways but worse in others.

I have horrible memories of being bounced about on rough ground in that bloody seat

I actually preferred driving our cabless 1968 DB880 by far

Unless it was raining

And those machines were so simple really. I find modern ones mildly stressful just because there's SO much to keep an eye on and control....

 

[DrWazzock]

Our 674 was a big improvement on the Ford 4000 in some ways but worse in others.

I have horrible memories of being bounced about on rough ground in that bloody seat

I actually preferred driving our cabless 1968 DB880 by far

Unless it was raining

And those machines were so simple really. I find modern ones mildly stressful just because there's SO much to keep an eye on and control....

There was a sweet spot about 24 years ago with machinery IMO. It was comfortable to drive but still simple enough to operate and repair. We had sprung cabs but it was still not much more complicated than push buttons and solenoids.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

There was a sweet spot about 24 years ago with machinery IMO. It was comfortable to drive but still simple enough to operate and repair. We had sprung cabs but it was still not much more complicated than push buttons and solenoids.

Ever since then we've become slaves to the technology the manufacturers have foisted on us IMHO.

Tractors, combines, lorries, cars. All the same.

Our current 2015 Mondeo has caused more stress than any other car I've owned. The 2004 Octavia it replaced was a dream by comparison.

 

[Two Tone]

There was a sweet spot about 24 years ago with machinery IMO. It was comfortable to drive but still simple enough to operate and repair. We had sprung cabs but it was still not much more complicated than push buttons and solenoids.

Ever since then we've become slaves to the technology the manufacturers have foisted on us IMHO.

Tractors, combines, lorries, cars. All the same.

Our current 2015 Mondeo has caused more stress than any other car I've owned. The 2004 Octavia it replaced was a dream by comparison.

Absolutely!
It has now got to the stage where I don’t want a new tractor, sprayer or anything else that has too much electrical wizardry on it. I don’t want to spend hours learning how to use it. I just want to get on with it and get the job done.

Just about every new car now comes with what looks like an iPad to control stuff that also looks like it was put in as an after thought, rather than having individual switches and knobs to alter stuff like fan speed a temperature.

When it first came out, it was a gimmick. Now it looks really cheap and nasty!