Dock control in high clover swards

[devonboy]

My agronomist informed me the other day that next year we will see a new clover safe dock spray that is looking promising!Apparently

 

[GeorgeK]

@ollie989898 I have patches of docks in some nectar/pollen stewardship. There is a good amount of red clover so I'm wondering if glyphosphate would kill the docks but the clover would recover? I realise the other flowers in the stewardship mix would be killed but because I would only be spraying a few patches it would be fine if only the red clover was left. Probably best to try an inconspicuous area first and see what happens?

 

[ollie989898]

@ollie989898 I have patches of docks in some nectar/pollen stewardship. There is a good amount of red clover so I'm wondering if glyphosphate would kill the docks but the clover would recover? I realise the other flowers in the stewardship mix would be killed but because I would only be spraying a few patches it would be fine if only the red clover was left. Probably best to try an inconspicuous area first and see what happens?

The glyphosate is going to make everything sick as a dog. I've seen white clover 'survive' (it was crippled and very unhappy for weeks) full rate glyphosate but can't remember ever bothering to look if red clover had stuck it or not. If you give it a big headache now and the autumn comes in cold/wet it may well kill it off. It doesn't stick punishment well in my experience. I honestly could not tell you with any certainty that it would survive or not.

Spraying the area with something selective like polo might be 'safer' but again I don't recall ever doing it on red clover. Spruce is expensive but I've used that on pure red clover stands before.

 

[cows sh#t me to tears]

We’re incorporating more and more clover into our grazing swards, but docks are always a problem after a while. We try to direct drill 1/2 spring 1/2 autumn reseeds with clover in the mix now and spray out the seedling docks at the 2-3 leaf stage more recently with squire. Before we would broadcast clover a year after the ley was established with after non-cloversafe spray was used with varying degrees of success. Is there a best time to spray In established Leys ? We would normally spray docks in April when clover is not that active, or a few weeks after a cut of silage. Wondered what other people were having success with. TIA

We have used these larvae with good success

Dock moth; a biological control for dock | Agriculture and Food

The dock moth (Chamaesphecia doryliformis) is a clearwing moth originally from Morocco. Its larvae are natural predators of the large rooted docks which are amongst the most serious weeds of high rainfall pastures across southern Australia.

www.agric.wa.gov.au

 

[Scholsey]

We have used these larvae with good success

Dock moth; a biological control for dock | Agriculture and Food

The dock moth (Chamaesphecia doryliformis) is a clearwing moth originally from Morocco. Its larvae are natural predators of the large rooted docks which are amongst the most serious weeds of high rainfall pastures across southern Australia.

www.agric.wa.gov.au

Can you post me 1 or 2 for a demo please,
I promise to look after them and have plenty of food for them.

 

[cows sh#t me to tears]

Morocco is closer to you than me

 

[Jdunn55]

Just thought I'd show this, we have a trial field that's being used in partnership with duchy college group.
It's in GS4, white clover and ryegrass (control mix) and a TOMS mix (toolbox of multi-species swards). Absoulutelt plagued with docks in the GS4, a fair few in the control mix but hardly any in the Tom's mix!! Could it be that they've been drowned out by the herbs?

Just for reference the Tom's mix contains:
Chicory, plantain, yarrow, birdsfoot trefoil, red clover, white clover, sainfoin and lucerne among a few others that havent done as well. The cows will also walk past the other plots of grass to get at this one. In the first photo 90% of the cows are on the Tom's mix with the control mix to the left of it and the gs4 to the left of that, they were let in from the left.

 

[Sid]

Just thought I'd show this, we have a trial field that's being used in partnership with duchy college group.
It's in GS4, white clover and ryegrass (control mix) and a TOMS mix (toolbox of multi-species swards). Absoulutelt plagued with docks in the GS4, a fair few in the control mix but hardly any in the Tom's mix!! Could it be that they've been drowned out by the herbs?

Just for reference the Tom's mix contains:
Chicory, plantain, yarrow, birdsfoot trefoil, red clover, white clover, sainfoin and lucerne among a few others that havent done as well. The cows will also walk past the other plots of grass to get at this one. In the first photo 90% of the cows are on the Tom's mix with the control mix to the left of it and the gs4 to the left of that, they were let in from the left.

Just been looking at herbs in a reseed.
On closer examination many of the "herbs" are already there, its just "weed" grasses have taken over.

Now looking at stitching in some grass rather than full reseed!

 

[Jdunn55]

Just been looking at herbs in a reseed.
On closer examination many of the "herbs" are already there, its just "weed" grasses have taken over.

Now looking at stitching in some grass rather than full reseed!

This mix has ryegrass (obviously), cocksfoot (which has just started to shine this year (planted late 2018) and kept growing much better than the ryegrass in the later half of this year - plus the cows are eating it and not rejecting it!!), festolium, timothy and meadow rescue. If I could have my time again I would also add tall fescue to try as I think it looks promising.

I like ryegrass but it only does well in certain conditions having other grasses seems to be much better for flexibility - especially in grazing fields

 

[Sid]

This mix has ryegrass (obviously), cocksfoot (which has just started to shine this year (planted late 2018) and kept growing much better than the ryegrass in the later half of this year - plus the cows are eating it and not rejecting it!!), festolium, timothy and meadow rescue. If I could have my time again I would also add tall fescue to try as I think it looks promising.

I like ryegrass but it only does well in certain conditions having other grasses seems to be much better for flexibility - especially in grazing fields

I agree, Timothy and cocksfoot as well as festioliums .
Red clover and white clover .

I will now pick a mixture for a field based on use, soil type, drainage rather than good old mix number 2

 

[Jdunn55]

I agree, Timothy and cocksfoot as well as festioliums .
Red clover and white clover .

I will now pick a mixture for a field based on use, soil type, drainage rather than good old mix number 2

Have you ever tried lucerne in a grazing mix? We normally cut these fields but have grazed them instead of making a third cut and next year will only graze. The lucerne has done amazingly well up until now so will be interested to see if it survives!

 

[Sid]

Have you ever tried lucerne in a grazing mix? We normally cut these fields but have grazed them instead of making a third cut and next year will only graze. The lucerne has done amazingly well up until now so will be interested to see if it survives!

Toyed with idea of Lucerne but we are restricted to handful of free draining fields.
We would also struggle with keeping pH correct and 1 field would be hassle.
Have talked about maize and fodder beet but sometimes best to KISS

 

[Jdunn55]

Toyed with idea of Lucerne but we are restricted to handful of free draining fields.
We would also struggle with keeping pH correct and 1 field would be hassle.
Have talked about maize and fodder beet but sometimes best to KISS

Hoping bedding on sand should keep ph correct and a fair few free draining fields so it might be worth a try...
Edit: would be in a mix of grasses and other herbs/legumes, I'm not brave enough to try a pure sward...

 

[Sid]

Hoping bedding on sand should keep ph correct and a fair few free draining fields so it might be worth a try...
Edit: would be in a mix of grasses and other herbs/legumes, I'm not brave enough to try a pure sward...

Bedding on sand has it own issues, mechanically.
Saw a farm in Sweden where his WC forage mix was a dozen or so different things, cereals, beans,legumes,peas,grasses,etc.
His thought process was, at least something will grow every year!
I can imagine the lab analysis form that silage wasn't worth the paper it was written on!

 

[Jdunn55]

Bedding on sand has it own issues, mechanically.
Saw a farm in Sweden where his WC forage mix was a dozen or so different things, cereals, beans,legumes,peas,grasses,etc.
His thought process was, at least something will grow every year!
I can imagine the lab analysis form that silage wasn't worth the paper it was written on!

Luckily it's all set up for sand just the tanker that will suffer

I think that's the theory with the Tom's mix as well but possibly with a mix of things designed and researched to do well together rather than a load of stuff chucked in and hope for the best...

 

[Sid]

Luckily it's all set up for sand just the tanker that will suffer

I think that's the theory with the Tom's mix as well but possibly with a mix of things designed and researched to do well together rather than a load of stuff chucked in and hope for the best...

We loose house one herd, every load of straw brings me fert, like you sand brings in lime.

TOMS mix is reinventing the wheel? Production isn't the only factor in grazing.
We have plenty of Rumex obtusifolius that brings up minerals and trace elements. I can let some go to seed, harvest and sell to you or come and pull your own for free!!

 

[Jdunn55]

We loose house one herd, every load of straw brings me fert, like you sand brings in lime.

TOMS mix is reinventing the wheel? Production isn't the only factor in grazing.
We have plenty of Rumex obtusifolius that brings up minerals and trace elements. I can let some go to seed, harvest and sell to you or come and pull your own for free!!

I also have plenty but thankyou for your kind offer

You could say that, but from my point of view when they first started I was hesitant, now i could quite easily become organic on my grazing ground - not sure about it from a silage point of view (yield more so than quality)

It's done really well in dry times and if we were to analyse it as silage i would hazard a guess it's much better than ryegrass due to the the herbs in there (particularly the red clover though).

Then theres the fact that theres hardly any docks or thistles too which could come as an added bonus!
Plus the cows like it!
Plus it has had no fertiliser and we get paid £100 an acre under the grant scheme.

For me it's a no brainer and I'll be putting more of it in for sure....

 

[Scholsey]

We loose house one herd, every load of straw brings me fert, like you sand brings in lime.

TOMS mix is reinventing the wheel? Production isn't the only factor in grazing.
We have plenty of Rumex obtusifolius that brings up minerals and trace elements. I can let some go to seed, harvest and sell to you or come and pull your own for free!!

Rumex obtusifolius........ need a few snazzy tweeters to start talking about it as a great source of selenium and great drought tolerance and they will be asking for it in their multi species grass mixes.

 

[Jdunn55]

Rumex obtusifolius........ need a few snazzy tweeters to start talking about it as a great source of selenium and great drought tolerance and they will be asking for it in their multi species grass mixes.

But the cows have to eat the bloody stuff.
Mine eat chicory, plantain, lucerne, clover etc

They'll nibble the leaves on a few docks and that's about it

 

[som farmer]

Have you ever tried lucerne in a grazing mix? We normally cut these fields but have grazed them instead of making a third cut and next year will only graze. The lucerne has done amazingly well up until now so will be interested to see if it survives!

we have been looking at all sorts ! Ryegrasses have really let us down, over the last 3 very dry summers, really good 1st cut, or graze, downhill from then, Now at the stage, where we only get regrowth following rain. This has bent the cows, grazing top quality, through to standing, nearly, hay. Then following rain, the cycle starts again ! Luckily, we have forage rape, which was very slow coming, but fine now, and have been feeding 2/3 kg head of hay, perfect mix for spr calvers !!!! We are including, vetches, chicory, plantain, tall fesque, cocksfoot, prg, and timothy in our reseeds this autumn.
Although we have not had much luck, with festololiums, we are trying lofa again, we think, where lofa was, we poached it over the winter, so 2nd chance. One of the biggest problems, has been ground cover, despite x drilling, and 18kg acre, other than our bottom fields, where everything has been fantastic, just can't seem to get ground cover with leys looking great this spring, to f######d now ! The problem, is very clearly moisture related, as you can see, every 'soil change', wet spot very clearly, either green, or various shades of brown ! Lets hope next year, is not so dry.
The buzz word is, climate change, wetter winters, drier summers, at what point, do you say, 'enough is enough' and start farming for the drier climate ?
Lucerne grows well, here, on the 'top' fields, same place as we can out winter ! But, may try some, elsewhere in a mix.