Dock control in high clover swards

[som farmer]

5?
Really?
Should ban "carp" conventional farmers from organic conversion ?

didn't realise there were organic fish farmers !

What dirt are you on, in fact, where the heck is your farm? Is it on the levels or what?

I can't see how you are getting bare fields despite having sown at 18kg/acre. I'll come and walk it. Just put the field outline on a map. I don't need any more details.

farm runs from 475 ft down to 200ft, situated where two valleys split, for years, been watching the rain come up from the levels, and go up one valley, or the other, with us, on the 'point' getting b-all.

 

[ollie989898]

5?
Really?
Should ban "carp" conventional farmers from organic conversion ?

It's a totally different style of farming and certainly not something just anyone can do. I bet a number of them who converted did so for quite the wrong reasons, the: 'ah I don't need to spend that' type mindset.

 

[Sid]

It's a totally different style of farming and certainly not something just anyone can do. I bet a number of them who converted did so for quite the wrong reasons, the: 'ah I don't need to spend that' type mindset.

See the grant to convert....but forget the skill and market needed to succeed.
Same with the many robots put in with grants. Take the money first then realise you still have to look after the cows. Robots get taken out and get a bad name. #looksgoodonpaper

 

[ollie989898]

See the grant to convert....but forget the skill and market needed to succeed.
Same with the many robots put in with grants. Take the money first then realise you still have to look after the cows. Robots get taken out and get a bad name. #looksgoodonpaper

The robot job is the exact same thing, only with a lot more £ signs. I've heard loads of people say: 'ah those robots, they no good, so and so put them in and took em out a year later' assuming it was the robots to blame. Doesn't work that way, I've said it before here, the key to success is the people managing it and little else. You hear similar 'ah robots- you'll end up with terrible milk quality and high SCCs' it's nonsense.

I view organic as being similar. People seem to think that the higher price for the end product will mask it all and heck, look at the money they won't be spending on fertiliser but it they aren't careful you can be circling the drain in no time with ever declining yields of forage.

It doesn't take many years for conventional land to go backwards big time and lose it's get up and go, I've spent enough time trying to get land back into shape to know it can get expensive. People who go organic after several years of neglecting their land end up on a hiding as they are on the back foot before they start.

 

[Sid]

The robot job is the exact same thing, only with a lot more £ signs. I've heard loads of people say: 'ah those robots, they no good, so and so put them in and took em out a year later' assuming it was the robots to blame. Doesn't work that way, I've said it before here, the key to success is the people managing it and little else. You hear similar 'ah robots- you'll end up with terrible milk quality and high SCCs' it's nonsense.

I view organic as being similar. People seem to think that the higher price for the end product will mask it all and heck, look at the money they won't be spending on fertiliser but it they aren't careful you can be circling the drain in no time with ever declining yields of forage.

It doesn't take many years for conventional land to go backwards big time and lose it's get up and go, I've spent enough time trying to get land back into shape to know it can get expensive. People who go organic after several years of neglecting their land end up on a hiding as they are on the back foot before they start.

Terrible SCC 216 and bacto 25 here this morning.
Yeah we have issues but also with parlour!

Farming organically is a rollercoaster, you have good years and great years, but the odd crap year thrown in as well. Cold late spring is the one that hurts the most.

 

[Sid]

Not too worried about docks here.
4th cut in the making

 

[som farmer]

It's a totally different style of farming and certainly not something just anyone can do. I bet a number of them who converted did so for quite the wrong reasons, the: 'ah I don't need to spend that' type mindset.

perhaps this ought to be in another thread, but, as said, there are good, and bad, farmers, in both conventional, and organic systems.
The 'ethos' of organic farming, is to protect, people, and land, from the 'harmful' 'stuff' conventional farmers use, ie fert, sprays, and medicines, and to improve the soil, so we can get more production, from it.
Soil structure, is one of the 'gold medal' aims of organic, and this can have seriously good implications, for both types, and personally, i think this, or lack of, is one of the reasons, we have suffered, coping with the dry summers, and we are farming, now, to 'build' structure.
But, the rest, i have doubts, most of the public, will quite happily, go to the doctors, and get prescribed medicine, while claiming to only eat, organic food, i accept that to be a simplistic view. But, what does the organic farmer, have in his 'war chest' to cope with the loss, of sprays, and fert ? The answer is, rotation, plough, and tractors. Rotation, which is rightly, important, using, those crops which build fertility, and with animal manure, form much of the basics, then, to get the 'best' from this, and weed control, you plough it in, very often creating a false seedbed, to cultivate, to kill weeds, before sowing, using diesel to do so. By ploughing, and subsequent working, surely suggests, that destroys, the worms/fungi/bacteria, that create a healthy soil ? Before, i seriously upset, a lot of organic farmers, , my views are personal, but would very much like, to be told, how soil structure, can be improved, with constant, and regular ploughing.

 

[Jdunn55]

Use to plough, have a year of spring WC , cultivate and catch crop then plough spring undersow for silage ground. lately have gone for straight reseed.
Grazing is either same or catch crop of turnips or kale then autumn reseed.
dropped WC as expensive, gone for multicut fesiloiums and red clover,

Interesting thankyou, so ploughing was enough to kill the old grass and any weeds etc without spraying?
I'm no fan of spraying unnecessarily but have always thought it necessary to kill old pasture.

I agree I'm not that fussed on white clover - red seems expensive enough! I think red clover is better anyway especially for silage ground as its deeper rooting and protein content seems to be higher from what I can gather? The only problem being that I cant graze ewes on it pre and during tupping

Photos of a silage field reseeded in the spring

 

[sidjon]

Interesting thankyou, so ploughing was enough to kill the old grass and any weeds etc without spraying?
I'm no fan of spraying unnecessarily but have always thought it necessary to kill old pasture.

I'm not organic and all our pastures would be ploughed and have a break crop (do use pre emerges on winter oats) and have less weeds and grow more grass than my neighbour who ploughed grass and drilled grass without a break, and our other neighbour is a organic arable farmer who is a joke( and was before he became organic 20 odd years ago) plants winter beans most year's and by harvest it's a field of ragwort, then sells it to MVF for feed (has got a very profitable 2nd business, so farming doesn't need to pay), as @Sid has said there's bad farming on both sides.

 

[ollie989898]

I'm not organic and all our pastures would be ploughed and have a break crop (do use pre emerges on winter oats) and have less weeds and grow more grass than my neighbour who ploughed grass and drilled grass without a break, and our other neighbour is a organic arable farmer who is a joke( and was before he became organic 20 odd years ago) plants winter beans most year's and by harvest it's a field of ragwort, then sells it to MVF for feed (has got a very profitable 2nd business, so farming doesn't need to pay), as @Sid has said there's bad farming on both sides.

Would not be using better grass mixtures potentially than your neighbour who ploughs everything with no breaks?

 

[sidjon]

Would not be using better grass mixtures potentially than your neighbour who ploughs everything with no breaks?

yeah most likely, all of ours is bespoke mixtures and we would have healthier soils (they are dairy too so should have as good soil health)but they don't see the benefits of lime...... but still need to break a grass lay to clean it of pests now and weeds, to give it the best start.

 

[Devon lad]

Not too worried about docks here.
4th cut in the making
View attachment 902423

How old is the ley? Controlling docks on a grazing only 21 day round is harder, is there red clover in that?

 

[Sid]

How old is the ley? Controlling docks on a grazing only 21 day round is harder, is there red clover in that?

3 years old RC festeoliums .
Looked like was going to be a disaster when planted as full of fat hen and chick weed.

Find dock control easier in grazing as can flail top and spread Pat's with roller on topper

 

[ploughman1963]

I am actually but havent been for long, only field of red clover I had before we went organic was the one I didn’t get around to spraying as a autumn reseed until dark, about to plough it 5 years later and still full of red clover and very few docks.

On our organic unit we have very few docks in the red clover swards. More of an issue in white clover swards.

 

[ploughman1963]

How old is the ley? Controlling docks on a grazing only 21 day round is harder, is there red clover in that?

Why harder to control in rotational grazing? We usually premow a couple of times a year same as conventional dairy units which controls them. The problems come with drought when docks run to head before grass grows back

 

[Devon lad]

Why harder to control in rotational grazing? We usually premow a couple of times a year same as conventional dairy units which controls them. The problems come with drought when docks run to head before grass grows back.

Docks at different growth stages, we find it easier to pre-mow or cut silage then spray 2 weeks later when the docks are all at an even growth stage. On a 18 day round in may, it’s 10 really after the spray you need to wait to put the cows back in. On Devon Redland may til September they run to seed very quickly especially the last few summers

 

[ploughman1963]

Docks at different growth stages, we find it easier to pre-mow or cut silage then spray 2 weeks later when the docks are all at an even growth stage. On a 18 day round in may, it’s 10 really after the spray you need to wait to put the cows back in. On Devon Redland may til September they run to seed very quickly especially the last few summers

Sorry, got my organic head on so wasn’t factoring in spraying