Dock control in high clover swards

[Sid]

I also have plenty but thankyou for your kind offer

You could say that, but from my point of view when they first started I was hesitant, now i could quite easily become organic on my grazing ground - not sure about it from a silage point of view (yield more so than quality)

It's done really well in dry times and if we were to analyse it as silage i would hazard a guess it's much better than ryegrass due to the the herbs in there (particularly the red clover though).

Then theres the fact that theres hardly any docks or thistles too which could come as an added bonus!
Plus the cows like it!
Plus it has had no fertiliser and we get paid £100 an acre under the grant scheme.

For me it's a no brainer and I'll be putting more of it in for sure....

No disrespect ,
I love this "i could quite easily become organic"
If i had a pound for every time i heard that...well

Docks have never been a real issue here, creeping thistles and rush, well

 

[Sid]

But the cows have to eat the bloody stuff.
Mine eat chicory, plantain, lucerne, clover etc

They'll nibble the leaves on a few docks and that's about it

Too much N in them,

 

[som farmer]

Bedding on sand has it own issues, mechanically.
Saw a farm in Sweden where his WC forage mix was a dozen or so different things, cereals, beans,legumes,peas,grasses,etc.
His thought process was, at least something will grow every year!
I can imagine the lab analysis form that silage wasn't worth the paper it was written on!

not certain, a lot of ley mixes, with multi varieties, are, some, are sure to grow !!!

 

[Jdunn55]

we have been looking at all sorts ! Ryegrasses have really let us down, over the last 3 very dry summers, really good 1st cut, or graze, downhill from then, Now at the stage, where we only get regrowth following rain. This has bent the cows, grazing top quality, through to standing, nearly, hay. Then following rain, the cycle starts again ! Luckily, we have forage rape, which was very slow coming, but fine now, and have been feeding 2/3 kg head of hay, perfect mix for spr calvers !!!! We are including, vetches, chicory, plantain, tall fesque, cocksfoot, prg, and timothy in our reseeds this autumn.
Although we have not had much luck, with festololiums, we are trying lofa again, we think, where lofa was, we poached it over the winter, so 2nd chance. One of the biggest problems, has been ground cover, despite x drilling, and 18kg acre, other than our bottom fields, where everything has been fantastic, just can't seem to get ground cover with leys looking great this spring, to f######d now ! The problem, is very clearly moisture related, as you can see, every 'soil change', wet spot very clearly, either green, or various shades of brown ! Lets hope next year, is not so dry.
The buzz word is, climate change, wetter winters, drier summers, at what point, do you say, 'enough is enough' and start farming for the drier climate ?

That's my thoughts too. I'm hoping to take on some more ground so want to plan for the new "normal" rather than hope it goes away.
Definitely try some lucerne in the mix, as i say we have been really impressed - same with sainfoin!
Tried vetch, cut it once and it's gone so make of that what you will, for ground cover the yarrow has really helped fill in any spots.
Then chicory is amazing in my opinion. And plantain is just behind it especially as it doesnt mind being cut!

But all I can say is clover, clover, clover!! I'll never not have clover in a ley that I want to last more than a year or two. Especially red clover.
Cocksfoot takes a year or two to get going but once it does it does a really good job which is great as ryegrass after the first year or two slows down.

 

[Jdunn55]

No disrespect ,
I love this "i could quite easily become organic"
If i had a pound for every time i heard that...well

Docks have never been a real issue here, creeping thistles and rush, well

None taken, I was joking though, I would struggle I think to be 100% organic but it has taught me that bagged nitrogen isnt everything and in dry times its absoulutely worthless!

 

[Jdunn55]

None taken, I was joking though, I would struggle I think to be 100% organic but it has taught me that bagged nitrogen isnt everything and in dry times its absoulutely worthless!

I do admire those who are organic though!

 

[Sid]

Then chicory is amazing in my opinion. And plantain is just behind it especially as it doesnt mind being cut!

But all I can say is clover, clover, clover!! I'll never not have clover in a ley that I want to last more than a year or two. Especially red clover.
Cocksfoot takes a year or two to get going but once it does it does a really good job which is great as ryegrass after the first year or two slows down

Chicory needs keeping on top of, grows too fast for an organic grazing situation from my experience, as it goes too woody.
We have some cocksfoot on drier land, does well but need to be kept on top .
Our clover this year is romping away, its like a weed this year , fields that had sparse amounts last year are plastered this year

 

[som farmer]

sorry sid, but my views on organic farming, influenced by my 2 neighbours, is you swap diesel, for fert, and sprays !

 

[Sid]

sorry sid, but my views on organic farming, influenced by my 2 neighbours, is you swap diesel, for fert, and sprays !

In any sector there are good and bad. Efficient and inefficient

 

[Scholsey]

But the cows have to eat the bloody stuff.
Mine eat chicory, plantain, lucerne, clover etc

They'll nibble the leaves on a few docks and that's about it

need a zero grazer, they love them then, thankfully.....

 

[som farmer]

In any sector there are good and bad. Efficient and inefficient

well my neighbours are very efficient at ploughing, a lot ploughed x2 a year, nothing much stays for more than 2 years.

 

[Jdunn55]

well my neighbours are very efficient at ploughing, a lot ploughed x2 a year, nothing much stays for more than 2 years.

That's a little bit scary

Then theres me who's tried direct drilling for the first time this autumn and is really pleased so far (stubble turnips, grass sprayed off on friday morning and drilled on friday evening and up yesterday!)

 

[Sid]

i could quite easily become organic

grass sprayed off on friday morning

Ops fell at first hurdle

That's a little bit scary

Then theres me who's tried direct drilling for the first time this autumn and is really pleased so far (stubble turnips, grass sprayed off on friday morning and drilled on friday evening and up yesterday!)

We tried to break the turf using discs this spring, into kale. Not convinced as ploughed piece, this year anyway, out yielded disced part

 

[Jdunn55]

Ops fell at first hurdle


We tried to break the turf using discs this spring, into kale. Not convinced as ploughed piece, this year anyway, out yielded disced part

I'm not 100% convinced either but then again, how much extra cost to get the extra yield etc
Will see how it goes, we've never grown stubble turnips or forage rape before!

Was wondering earlier how you go about getting a field ready for reseeding without spraying off?

 

[Sid]

I'm not 100% convinced either but then again, how much extra cost to get the extra yield etc
Will see how it goes, we've never grown stubble turnips or forage rape before!

Was wondering earlier how you go about getting a field ready for reseeding without spraying off?

Use to plough, have a year of spring WC , cultivate and catch crop then plough spring undersow for silage ground. lately have gone for straight reseed.
Grazing is either same or catch crop of turnips or kale then autumn reseed.
dropped WC as expensive, gone for multicut fesiloiums and red clover,

 

[som farmer]

That's a little bit scary

Then theres me who's tried direct drilling for the first time this autumn and is really pleased so far (stubble turnips, grass sprayed off on friday morning and drilled on friday evening and up yesterday!)

yes, we drilled friday evening, up in line this afternoon, amazing !

 

[The Agrarian]

Just don't allow the docks to seed

It's a huge help obviously. I'm a four cut person, so there are not many mature seeds cast about our silage ground. And yet, the buggers are everywhere. You get a decent kill, and in three or four years time it's a mess again.

 

[ollie989898]

we have been looking at all sorts ! Ryegrasses have really let us down, over the last 3 very dry summers, really good 1st cut, or graze, downhill from then, Now at the stage, where we only get regrowth following rain. This has bent the cows, grazing top quality, through to standing, nearly, hay. Then following rain, the cycle starts again ! Luckily, we have forage rape, which was very slow coming, but fine now, and have been feeding 2/3 kg head of hay, perfect mix for spr calvers !!!! We are including, vetches, chicory, plantain, tall fesque, cocksfoot, prg, and timothy in our reseeds this autumn.
Although we have not had much luck, with festololiums, we are trying lofa again, we think, where lofa was, we poached it over the winter, so 2nd chance. One of the biggest problems, has been ground cover, despite x drilling, and 18kg acre, other than our bottom fields, where everything has been fantastic, just can't seem to get ground cover with leys looking great this spring, to f######d now ! The problem, is very clearly moisture related, as you can see, every 'soil change', wet spot very clearly, either green, or various shades of brown ! Lets hope next year, is not so dry.
The buzz word is, climate change, wetter winters, drier summers, at what point, do you say, 'enough is enough' and start farming for the drier climate ?
Lucerne grows well, here, on the 'top' fields, same place as we can out winter ! But, may try some, elsewhere in a mix.

What dirt are you on, in fact, where the heck is your farm? Is it on the levels or what?

I can't see how you are getting bare fields despite having sown at 18kg/acre. I'll come and walk it. Just put the field outline on a map. I don't need any more details.

 

[ollie989898]

No disrespect ,
I love this "i could quite easily become organic"
If i had a pound for every time i heard that...well

Docks have never been a real issue here, creeping thistles and rush, well

It amuses me no end when people come out with that retort.

I would bet good money that for every good serious organic farm you can find 5 that will or are failing or doing the job badly. I'd put money on it. People seem to take the view that it is the option to take where you don't spend any money and everything magically happens by itself, as if by default. No skill involved. The thought process must be, heck, I'm a a carp or mediocre conventional farmer, I might as well go organic and have an easy life. Utter nonsense. Totally different mindset, system and skills/knowledge required. WIth no magic nitrogen tap to turn on and off you can have cows literally starving to death.

 

[Sid]

It amuses me no end when people come out with that retort.

I would bet good money that for every good serious organic farm you can find 5 that will or are failing or doing the job badly. I'd put money on it. People seem to take the view that it is the option to take where you don't spend any money and everything magically happens by itself, as if by default. No skill involved. The thought process must be, heck, I'm a a carp or mediocre conventional farmer, I might as well go organic and have an easy life. Utter nonsense. Totally different mindset, system and skills/knowledge required. WIth no magic nitrogen tap to turn on and off you can have cows literally starving to death.

5?
Really?
Should ban "carp" conventional farmers from organic conversion ?