ebv debate

[Frank-the-Wool]

EBV's are essential if you wish to improve maternal efficiency. Lambing %, ease of lambing, weaning weights on forage only diet etc.
EBV's on terminals are less important, but growth rates and fat cover should be a very important consideration when buying that terminal sire providing the figures come from a grass only diet.
There are far too many rams that are stuffed with concentrates and cabbages!!

 

[Man_in_black]

In the grand scheme of things the big picture it has to be a good thing; as time goes on accuracy will increase & hopefully it'll become common place amongst commercial breeders, "the norm". When that happens, we'll have proof to back up what our eye is telling us. EBV should be the best way to weed out those who bulk up sub standard ram lambs, and give definition with clever clipping. I think eventually EBV will lead to greater transparency. All for it!

 

[Henarar]

In the grand scheme of things the big picture it has to be a good thing; as time goes on accuracy will increase & hopefully it'll become common place amongst commercial breeders, "the norm". When that happens, we'll have proof to back up what our eye is telling us. EBV should be the best way to weed out those who bulk up sub standard ram lambs, and give definition with clever clipping. I think eventually EBV will lead to greater transparency. All for it!

As I said above the more that record the better it will become surly ?
not much point complaining about it and not recording your own animals as some breeders do

 

[neilo]

There are far too many rams that are stuffed with concentrates and cabbages!!

I agree wholeheartedly with that statement, but feeding is a totally different argument as to whether sheep should be recorded or not. Plenty of recorded AND unrecorded stock are fed heavily.

 

[Bury the Trash]

a very good reply ,and absolutely my thoughts , have had a number of good index terminal rams here over the last few years , none left now , simply because their offspring didnt touch or grade well on old pasture at 40kg (maybe at 80kg !) , thats not to say i wouldnt buy another , just that anything raised and recorded in any differing way or weight to how the offspring are expected to perform wont replicate the desired results ,
There was one non recorded from a commercial flock who bred his own rams with a v high index sire and dam (sire) he was very good , although small , but still gave v good offspring at killing weight ,so there is mileage in it and salvaged some of my faith in the scheme ,
I think they still have a long way to go before you can rely on the results though , and 25 years down the line if all was well should be miles in front by now .

Still early days. Though i do remember bidding for a ram with stars on his back 15 or so yrs ago having had a quick look at the catalogue thinking he must be better having 3 than 1, These days i like to think i know more about it but im not sure, bit like @JD-Kid says you almost need A level maths.
This is what happens for me now- I pour over the fact sheet - choose the best for me in theory(or the best compromise that i can afford) then when i go to see them i will change my mind ,-taking the figures/theory that i was prepared for and applying it to the nearest animal that i liked the look of (the looks that exp. or gut feeling made me think it was the 'right' one.
But the first requirement for me anyway these days would be knowing about the breeder,and a bit about his system and ideals.

 

[romneymarsh]

Still early days. Though i do remember bidding for a ram with stars on his back 15 or so yrs ago having had a quick look at the catalogue thinking he must be better having 3 than 1, These days i like to think i know more about it but im not sure, bit like @JD-Kid says you almost need A level maths.
This is what happens for me now- I pour over the fact sheet - choose the best for me in theory(or the best compromise that i can afford) then when i go to see them i will change my mind ,-taking the figures/theory that i was prepared for and applying it to the nearest animal that i liked the look of (the looks that exp. or gut feeling made me think it was the 'right' one.
But the first requirement for me anyway these days would be knowing about the breeder,and a bit about his system and ideals.

All of these and previous sentiments high light the increasing sense that increasingly farmers are buying tups ex farm . This is a problem for the Auctioneers but they appear to have their collective heads firmly in the sand .

 

[neilo]

I have very few customers that don't at least look at the ebvs of my rams these days, and use them as an additional selection tool. If I get anyone that asks me for a 'high index' ram, then they receive a lecture as to why the overall index means diddly squat and explain why the individual ebvs are important. Massive growth figures may seem appealing, but if it means that ram, and his progeny, are late maturing and the lambs don't finish without creep, then they won't suit all systems.
Where (terminal sire) breeds have been utilising CT scanning, the gigot muscularity ebvs are another useful trait to look at, to tell you about meat in the hindquarter, rather than the impression of meat from short legs, sloping pelvises and skilful trimming. Those types can be high yielding in those cuts, but not necessarily.

As a breeder that has been recording with Signet for 23 years, I am absolutely sold on performance recording AS A TOOL, but you also have to use your eyes and your hands IMO. The scheme ahs made massive strides in that time, but is still just another tool. You can have bl**dy awful sheep in both recorded and unrecorded flocks, and it does no good whatsoever for anyone to sell those sheep for breeding just because they have figures. In both cases, they should be culled. Just because someone is recording, it doesn't make them a good breeder, much the same as someone is a skilful feeder and/or trimmer isn't necessarily either.

When I am selecting my female replacements for the pedigree flock, I don't even look at the figures. Selection is purely on functional traits, confirmation and pedigree and has been for nearly 20 years. As it happens, I was looking through my Signet report a couple of days ago, checking out the females that I am shortly going to register. Very few of them are outside the top 10% overall, with muscle and muscularity ebvs mostly in the top 5%.

When I am selecting potential stock sires, I am much more attentive to the figures. I will be looking for an animal to excel in whatever trait I am looking to improve in a group of sheep, bearing in mind that not all sheep in a flock will want one sire over them. Obviously scale has a bearing here, as small flocks may only be able to access one sire at a time. Unless there is no option (my recent Beltex purchases for example), I won't even look at unrecorded rams, having been stung too many times, unless they are truly exceptional animals. Even then, I will have a lot less confidence in their genetics than I would if the same animal had ebvs. That confidence will certainly be reflected in my appetite for bidding.

As far as accuracy is concerned, that will increase as more data is added to the analysis, whether through use in larger flocks/groups or through shared rams. I often hear breeders moaning because their new unrecorded ram purchase has poor figures. Very often it is because he has only had half a dozen progeny recorded, so the lack of accuracy has pulled the figures down (IIRC, it needs 30 or so progeny recorded to start to build an accurate picture). Of course, sometimes they are just crap, but nobody likes to admit they paid a lot of money for some awful specimen that looked great in his finery. To get numbers of progeny, you need flocks with scale, more time (several seasons' use) or shared use between recorded flocks. As someone recently said to me, unfortunately most pedigree sheep in this country are bred by either hobby farmers or farmers with hobbies. He wasn't far wrong.

 

[romneymarsh]

I have very few customers that don't at least look at the ebvs of my rams these days, and use them as an additional selection tool. If I get anyone that asks me for a 'high index' ram, then they receive a lecture as to why the overall index means diddly squat and explain why the individual ebvs are important. Massive growth figures may seem appealing, but if it means that ram, and his progeny, are late maturing and the lambs don't finish without creep, then they won't suit all systems.
Where (terminal sire) breeds have been utilising CT scanning, the gigot muscularity ebvs are another useful trait to look at, to tell you about meat in the hindquarter, rather than the impression of meat from short legs, sloping pelvises and skilful trimming. Those types can be high yielding in those cuts, but not necessarily.

As a breeder that has been recording with Signet for 23 years, I am absolutely sold on performance recording AS A TOOL, but you also have to use your eyes and your hands IMO. The scheme ahs made massive strides in that time, but is still just another tool. You can have bl**dy awful sheep in both recorded and unrecorded flocks, and it does no good whatsoever for anyone to sell those sheep for breeding just because they have figures. In both cases, they should be culled. Just because someone is recording, it doesn't make them a good breeder, much the same as someone is a skilful feeder and/or trimmer isn't necessarily either.

When I am selecting my female replacements for the pedigree flock, I don't even look at the figures. Selection is purely on functional traits, confirmation and pedigree and has been for nearly 20 years. As it happens, I was looking through my Signet report a couple of days ago, checking out the females that I am shortly going to register. Very few of them are outside the top 10% overall, with muscle and muscularity ebvs mostly in the top 5%.

When I am selecting potential stock sires, I am much more attentive to the figures. I will be looking for an animal to excel in whatever trait I am looking to improve in a group of sheep, bearing in mind that not all sheep in a flock will want one sire over them. Obviously scale has a bearing here, as small flocks may only be able to access one sire at a time. Unless there is no option (my recent Beltex purchases for example), I won't even look at unrecorded rams, having been stung too many times, unless they are truly exceptional animals. Even then, I will have a lot less confidence in their genetics than I would if the same animal had ebvs. That confidence will certainly be reflected in my appetite for bidding.

As far as accuracy is concerned, that will increase as more data is added to the analysis, whether through use in larger flocks/groups or through shared rams. I often hear breeders moaning because their new unrecorded ram purchase has poor figures. Very often it is because he has only had half a dozen progeny recorded, so the lack of accuracy has pulled the figures down (IIRC, it needs 30 or so progeny recorded to start to build an accurate picture). Of course, sometimes they are just crap, but nobody likes to admit they paid a lot of money for some awful specimen that looked great in his finery. To get numbers of progeny, you need flocks with scale, more time (several seasons' use) or shared use between recorded flocks. As someone recently said to me, unfortunately most pedigree sheep in this country are bred by either hobby farmers or farmers with hobbies. He wasn't far wrong.

Very good explanation

 

[Calum the Shepherd]

I face this battle with people alot. We farm 4000 ewes and buy a few tups each year, this farm is purely commercial. The supplier is told what we want in certain traits and they must be incorporated with good conformation and constitution. If they turned up with a sheep that resembled a blue barrel and tractor weights for a head he'd be sent back swiftly as would he if his figures/traits didn't meet criteria.
I like to make decisions on fact as opposed to fiction. We trialled 200 ewes a piece one lot to recorder tups and other to non recorded.
I'll let you work out which lambs finished better in same circumstances.

 

[Calum the Shepherd]

Equally a little of topic but you may find entertaining.... a recent Romney sale in NZ the top tup reached $12000 roughly. When I mentioned this on social media a texel breeder of whom is a little anti NZ and anti ebv figures made the comment "$12000 and they still had to crutch him".....my thought was "people pay same amount for Texels and still end up pulling every lamb or cutting them out"
some people will never change there views even when it's obvious and they'll always be on the defensive.
Grandad also told me look at the man you buy the tup from, you can learn alot about them that way

 

[romneymarsh]

I face this battle with people alot. We farm 4000 ewes and buy a few tups each year, this farm is purely commercial. The supplier is told what we want in certain traits and they must be incorporated with good conformation and constitution. If they turned up with a sheep that resembled a blue barrel and tractor weights for a head he'd be sent back swiftly as would he if his figures/traits didn't meet criteria.
I like to make decisions on fact as opposed to fiction. We trialled 200 ewes a piece one lot to recorder tups and other to non recorded.
I'll let you work out which lambs finished better in same circumstances.

Peoples assumption regarding last para. will depend entirely on where their opinions lay.

 

[Tim W]

If you can tell the worm resistance of an animal by looking at him you don't need BLUP/EBVs to help you

If you can tell how much milk a rams daughters will have by looking at him you don't need EBVs to help you

If either of the above apply to you then please tell me the lottery numbers for the next big Euro lottery

 

[hillman]

Slightly different system over here but I try and buy the Rams with 5 stars but must be correct visually,
The more I've gone for the system the slighty quicker and more conistant my lambs are finishing

Does it have a place yes it does , buying a car to a cooker you look at the figures to find what suits , why not for the stock that are going to pay for the thing

On the farmers weekly piece , yes the muscled top market but how many did they sell how much lambing hardship etc , how many off these great lambs do need to sell per ewe to cover the costs compared to a flock selling 1.5 ? Or are they matching that ?

 

[andybk]

[QUOTE="neilo, post: 1801916, member: 348"]I have very few customers that don't at least look at the ebvs of my rams these days, and use them as an additional selection tool. If I get anyone that asks me for a 'high index' ram, then they receive a lecture as to why the overall index means diddly squat and explain why the individual ebvs are important. Massive growth figures may seem appealing, but if it means that ram, and his progeny, are late maturing and the lambs don't finish without creep, then they won't suit all systems.
Where (terminal sire) breeds have been utilising CT scanning, the gigot muscularity ebvs are another useful trait to look at, to tell you about meat in the hindquarter, rather than the impression of meat from short legs, sloping pelvises and skilful trimming. Those types can be high yielding in those cuts, but not necessarily.
[/QUOTE]

agree with your post and good explanation and i can see various traits being a very useful tool , the basco grid is very informative ,(just because we dont use signet dosnt mean us on the outside dont record with our own systems btw ) but why does signet keep promoting HIGH indexs all the time with regard teminals (the overall index) , You know as well as i there are some very good index rams with our breed , i doubt either of us would use certainly on a good commercial flock let alone a pedigree one , yet signet will keep pushing them because of the overall number . I doesn't do the scheme or the breed any good long term .

 

[Ysgythan]

Equally a little of topic but you may find entertaining.... a recent Romney sale in NZ the top tup reached $12000 roughly. When I mentioned this on social media a texel breeder of whom is a little anti NZ and anti ebv figures made the comment "$12000 and they still had to crutch him".....my thought was "people pay same amount for Texels and still end up pulling every lamb or cutting them out"
some people will never change there views even when it's obvious and they'll always be on the defensive.
Grandad also told me look at the man you buy the tup from, you can learn alot about them that way

you're quite welcome to come and meet me and have a look at my system.

 

[Calum the Shepherd]

you're quite welcome to come and meet me and have a look at my system.

Thanks.

 

[Ysgythan]

Thanks.

Because I'm the Texel breeder you describe in such glowing terms

 

[Calum the Shepherd]

It wasn't your system I was criticising. It was the fact and I won't fall out with anyone about it but people dismiss ebvs and will also look to cast judgement on others that dont. It's a tit for tat system.
If you slate one thing it can also go the other way. It's like people that dismiss the mule now, I won't sand for that because our sheep industry has been built on them and I still believe with some minor improvements it's the way to go. Lowther have proved this.
Don't take it personally! I have some good friends who are in the texel game...just happened to be example I gave

 

[Ysgythan]

It wasn't your system I was criticising. It was the fact and I won't fall out with anyone about it but people dismiss ebvs and will also look to cast judgement on others that dont. It's a tit for tat system.
If you slate one thing it can also go the other way. It's like people that dismiss the mule now, I won't sand for that because our sheep industry has been built on them and I still believe with some minor improvements it's the way to go. Lowther have proved this.
Don't take it personally! I have some good friends who are in the texel game...just happened to be example I gave

Don't worry, I didn't, and trust me if I had you'd know

 

[Joe]

I culled 2 lovely ewe lambs this morning, both 1 star & 2 star. Mad maybe but 4/5 star ewes are producing my best Rams