Establishment decision

[Clive]

I guess the real solution is to start thinking ahead more when spraying - hopefully I can get away from using chemicals like Atlantis all together next year

 

[Clive]

Here's a thought !

How about I drag the Dale through post harvest without seeding and them return with seed at drilling time hopefully after a strip chit of weed - use RTK to put osr into the same runs the drill cultivated ?

Kind of bodge, home made strip till !

 

[shakerator]

whats the soil pH?

if your below 7 you should be ok atlantis wise

 

[Clive]

whats the soil pH?

if your below 7 you should be ok atlantis wise

It will be below 7 - we are on quite acidic red sand where we never really see 7

Can someone explain to me why low ph helps with breakdown please ?

 

[shakerator]

http://extension.psu.edu/pests/weeds/control/persistance-of-herbicides-in-soil


Soil pH can influence the persistence of some herbicides, especially the triazines and sulfonylureas (see Table 1). Chemical and microbial breakdown, two ways herbicides degrade in soil, often are slower in higher-pH soils. In particular, the chemical degradation rate of the triazine and sulfonylurea herbicide families slows as the soil pH increases, particularly above pH 7.0. In addition, in higher-pH soils, lesser amounts of these herbicides are bound to soil particles, making more available for plant uptake. So in higher-pH soils, the triazine and sulfonylurea herbicides persist longer, and more is available for plant uptake. (Some triazine and sulfonylurea herbicides do not persist and carry over, regardless of how high the soil pH is.)
Low pH also can affect the persistence of both the triazine and sulfonylurea herbicides. Soil pH levels below 6.0 allow a more rapid dissipation of both these herbicide families. In acid soils, herbicides like atrazine become bound to soil particles, making them unavailable for weed control, but at the same time, they are chemically degraded more quickly. This makes liming an acid soil important for achieving an adequate performance from these two herbicide families.

 

[KJM]

Has all your wheat this year been sprayed with atlantis? If you have a smaller area for OSR this year would it not be easier just to swap fields. Hopefully the chemical will have degraded away ready for the spring crop.

Most chemical labels state to plough to 6" or more if they anticipate a problem with residue. I assumed it was the physical burial with a plough that is important not just the cultivation? A lot of osr is sown with very minimal cultivation after these chemicals so I am probably wrong.

 

[Tractor Boy]

http://extension.psu.edu/pests/weeds/control/persistance-of-herbicides-in-soil


Soil pH can influence the persistence of some herbicides, especially the triazines and sulfonylureas (see Table 1). Chemical and microbial breakdown, two ways herbicides degrade in soil, often are slower in higher-pH soils. In particular, the chemical degradation rate of the triazine and sulfonylurea herbicide families slows as the soil pH increases, particularly above pH 7.0. In addition, in higher-pH soils, lesser amounts of these herbicides are bound to soil particles, making more available for plant uptake. So in higher-pH soils, the triazine and sulfonylurea herbicides persist longer, and more is available for plant uptake. (Some triazine and sulfonylurea herbicides do not persist and carry over, regardless of how high the soil pH is.)
Low pH also can affect the persistence of both the triazine and sulfonylurea herbicides. Soil pH levels below 6.0 allow a more rapid dissipation of both these herbicide families. In acid soils, herbicides like atrazine become bound to soil particles, making them unavailable for weed control, but at the same time, they are chemically degraded more quickly. This makes liming an acid soil important for achieving an adequate performance from these two herbicide families.

Sounds like text book theory that doesn't actually happen in practice. Our soils are pH 7.5 to 8 but I don't see any better control from Atlantis or see problems in following crops. I suppose I don't have any acidic soil to compare it to though.

 

[Clive]

Has all your wheat this year been sprayed with atlantis? If you have a smaller area for OSR this year would it not be easier just to swap fields. Hopefully the chemical will have degraded away ready for the spring crop.

Most chemical labels state to plough to 6" or more if they anticipate a problem with residue. I assumed it was the physical burial with a plough that is important not just the cultivation? A lot of osr is sown with very minimal cultivation after these chemicals so I am probably wrong.

no not all was atlantis sprayed and a swap about is a possibility. However rotationally its not so good as the block I wanted to crop with OSR has not had osr for 7 years where as anywhere I could move it to was OSR 2 seasons ago

 

[shakerator]

Sounds like text book theory that doesn't actually happen in practice. Our soils are pH 7.5 to 8 but I don't see any better control from Atlantis or see problems in following crops. I suppose I don't have any acidic soil to compare it to though.

there are obviously more variables than pH, but the newer SU's break down a lot quicker anyway. Dupont used to have much bigger problems with glean. Lexus allows autocast OSR

 

[doorknob]

In dd/no-till, soil C.E.C. (cation exchange capacity) is a very important soil make up characteristic to always consider when applying fertilizers and chemicals. Especially residual chemicals.

The "Exchange Capacity" is not applied to nutrients only. It applies to pesticides too. It should be part of any dd/no-till treatment program, but seldom is. IMO.

Here's but one simple video on the subject.

 

[Fendty]

No doubt spring applied residual's can cause problems in a dry season[ 2010] with covercrops etc, I had trouble with ally affecting mustard growth. But I feel with this years moisture the dale eco drill will create ample clean tilth in fert and seed 10'mode to overcome problems.

 

[Old John]

We have only seen Atlantis problems on overlaps after the very dry spring a couple of years ago. We use an Amazone primera so very little soil movement. Our agronomist won't use Pacifica befor rape though.

 

[martian]

In dd/no-till, soil C.E.C. (cation exchange capacity) is a very important soil make up characteristic to always consider when applying fertilizers and chemicals. Especially residual chemicals.

The "Exchange Capacity" is not applied to nutrients only. It applies to pesticides too. It should be part of any dd/no-till treatment program, but seldom is. IMO.

Here's but one simple video on the subject.

Thanks Doorknob, very interesting. Never occurred to me before, but makes perfect sense

 

[Clive]

Talked this through with the agronomist today - subject to what the test seed plots show over the next 2 weeks we are just going to go for it and risk the risdual issues

What's the worse that can happen ? Some wasted seed and a bit more spring break instead

 

[KJM]

Forage rape/Stubble turnip mix planted one week ago today with a 750A into baled winter barley stubble. White edges on many of the cotyledons but does seem to be improving. Herbicide on barley was CTU DFF PDM and I think picolinofen applied very end of February.

 

[Clive]

Now looks like the clearfield seed I ordered is not available

Maybe a sign to just sow some from the heap and see if I have a crop in the spring ??

 

[yellow belly]

if it is bad charlock then plant rape early to get a thick competitive crop

low disturbance should reduce the early charlock the ground cover of early rape should reduce the follow up growth of charlock
this year charlock has grown prolifickly so viable seed on the top should be in low numbers

no wheat ready round here so still waiting for harvest to start

 

[York]

Now looks like the clearfield seed I ordered is not available

Maybe a sign to just sow some from the heap and see if I have a crop in the spring ??

Don't wine. Don't follow the Clearfield route.
Just be patient and you will see what they will say in a couple of years about the Clearfield effect on soil life.
If you like, do a internet research on the active ingredient of Clearfield herbicide.
York-Th.