Euthanasia

[Farmerdunk]

]I spent several hours reading various links and several different versions of your Articles of Faith. I am not going to go searching through them all again to find the couple which led me to make my post. I posted that the Articles (perhaps only some and not all, as they are different for different churches) implied that only "true believers" (from which I interpreted "Baptists") would rejoice in Heaven. If that is not the case, then it matters not to me because I am certain there is no Heaven or Hell.

I still think it is damnable that a religion should teach young children the nonsense that the world was created in 6 days - literally. I could perhaps accept Darwin's idea from those who believe in a creation.

Three things I did not find out was whether you are allowed to consume acohol and gamble; and when the world was supposedly created. Are you like the JW who think it was 6000 years ago?

"True believers" don't have to be baptists. I am certain that you are wrong, there is a heaven and hell.
Alcohol is allowed, I've just had a rum, gambling would be frowned on in my view and the world was created about 6000 years ago. And it was created in 6 days. If not how long did it take?

 

[Old McDonald]

"True believers" don't have to be baptists. I am certain that you are wrong, there is a heaven and hell.
Alcohol is allowed, I've just had a rum, gambling would be frowned on in my view and the world was created about 6000 years ago. And it was created in 6 days. If not how long did it take?

As I posted a while ago (and we have taken the thread a long way off topic) I will not try to change your mind.

I believe the universe, including planet Earth, was not "created" in the biblical sense, so your question cannot be answered.

 

[caveman]

As I posted a while ago (and we have taken the thread a long way off topic) I will not try to change your mind.

I believe the universe, including planet Earth, was not "created" in the biblical sense, so your question cannot be answered.

Niether a believer or non believer.
Keeping an open mind.
For instance.
If you were a being on high explaining to your simple creations how they got to where they are...........would you tell them that they came from a solar system, by some means that even we today could not comprehend, that was dissappearing into a black hole millions of light years away?
Or would you tell them that the rains came and flooded the place and a few of each species jumped on a boat?

 

[Pond digger]

Niether a believer or non believer.
Keeping an open mind.
For instance.
If you were a being on high explaining to your simple creations how they got to where they are...........would you tell them that they came from a solar system, by some means that even we today could not comprehend, that was dissappearing into a black hole millions of light years away?
Or would you tell them that the rains came and flooded the place and a few of each species jumped on a boat?

Undoubtedly, the more developed religions were a useful tool for teaching moral behaviour to primitive societies. But when we became educated, we started asking more searching questions, and found religion left wanting for answers. As we progress, we find that science makes more sense of the world.

However, some people become so brainwashed by religious teaching that they become completely unreceptive to new thinking, however logical such new ideas might be. The result is religious extremism, which as we know all too well, can become radical and dangerous.

 

[Blackcoos]

Psalm 14 verse 1 says - The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

@Old McDonald instead of looking up the sub ordinate standards of denominations, you should look to the original - the Bible. Try starting with the book of John. Far better for you than any denominations interpretation of same.

 

[Old McDonald]

Niether a believer or non believer.
Keeping an open mind.
For instance.
If you were a being on high explaining to your simple creations how they got to where they are...........would you tell them that they came from a solar system, by some means that even we today could not comprehend, that was dissappearing into a black hole millions of light years away?
Or would you tell them that the rains came and flooded the place and a few of each species jumped on a boat?

Neither, because neither is a true statement.

 

[Old McDonald]

Psalm 14 verse 1 says - The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.

@Old McDonald instead of looking up the sub ordinate standards of denominations, you should look to the original - the Bible. Try starting with the book of John. Far better for you than any denominations interpretation of same.

Other fools believe in a supreme being.

For the benefit of those readers who may not know, King James VI of Scotland and I of England commanded a bible to be written in English, requiring it to be as accurate a translation as possible from the most original documentation available. It was completed in 1611 and became known as the King James Version (KJV) and I presume you mean this Bible. It is an interpretation by men from papers written by other men in a language foreign to those who made up the Bible. It is a fiction, despite the best efforts of those who wrote it. I forget the details, but I think King James asked slightly more than 50 to undertake the work and slightly under 50 actual wrote it.

I was brought up as a Methodist and I have read a great deal, if not all of the Bible at some time in my life.

There should be no need of any denominations. There should be only one religion throughout the whole world. There can only be one truth. There cannot be variations of it. It has to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Disagreement on even the slightest matter amongst denominations means that they are all wrong except one. Provided of course that there is a supreme being and that one of the denominations has chose the real truth.

 

[caveman]

Neither, because neither is a true statement.

In your opinion.

 

[Old McDonald]

In your opinion.

Do you believe either one?

That is, that either the whole Universe is on its way to disappearing into a black hole; or that Noah's Ark is a true story?

Your post is the only suggestion I have ever seen that the first is a possibility. Could be worth pursuing if you do believe it.

The Noah's Ark story is obviously a physical impossibility - especially given the size of the boat according to the Bible. Which you have to accept if you believe that there was such a boat.

 

[caveman]

I just have an open mind.
The Ark was plausible when that was all that could be comprehended.
Warp time travel....... beam me up Scotty superseded that.
There is much that is far beyond the comprehension of even the finest minds around today.
Can we really be sure that no life of any form on this planet has not come from elswhere?

 

[Old McDonald]

I will answer your question first. No, we cannot be sure. It is possible that some life (in whatever form) has arrived on earth from a meteorite. Does it matter? If it did, it abolishes the creationist theory. Where would you stand on that premise?

The Ark was never plausible. The limited size of such a craft, and the obvious impossibility of picking up such objects as breeding pairs of penguins (many species) and polar bears from a base somewher in the mythological area of where the ark was supposedly built gives the lie to the assumption that it happened. As a matter of interest what timescale would you put on the ark being built?

It might have been believed by those who wanted to believe, and obviously is believed by those who think the Bible is absolutely perfect. I still ask the question of you - do you believe it?

I also totally agree that there is a great deal that is as yet unknown, but you have also failed to answer the other question I put to you, do you believe that the Universe is heading towards oblivion in a black hole?

I did not pose the possibilites, you did. I merely asked whether you believed them yourself, and you have not responded. Please do so.

 

[Farmerdunk]

50-75 years to build the ark. It was 300x50 cubits, so 6:1 ratio. Modern ship builders say that this is the most stable for ocean boats/vessels,almost impossible to turn over.

 

[Old McDonald]

@caveman So now you have the dimensions and the fact that (according to the Bible) it took some bloke between 50 and 75 years to build.

Bear in mind too that all this happened within the last 600 years. The world did not exist before then.

Now you have the extra info please answer the question of the scenarios you suggested as plausible. Do you believe them or not?

 

[caveman]

Niether a believer or non believer.
Keeping an open mind.
For instance.
If you were a being on high explaining to your simple creations how they got to where they are...........would you tell them that they came from a solar system, by some means that even we today could not comprehend, that was dissappearing into a black hole millions of light years away?
Or would you tell them that the rains came and flooded the place and a few of each species jumped on a boat?

@caveman So now you have the dimensions and the fact that (according to the Bible) it took some bloke between 50 and 75 years to build.

Bear in mind too that all this happened within the last 600 years. The world did not exist before then.

Now you have the extra info please answer the question of the scenarios you suggested as plausible. Do you believe them or not?

You did read the first two lines in my first post?
I quoted above.
I neither believe nor disbelieve.
I'm keeping an open mind.
And that covers everything... not just religion.
Whereas your beliefs or atheism is based entirely on evidence that you can comprehend.
How long was was the first day.... When God created the heaven and the earth?
24 hours?

 

[Old McDonald]

That is a bit of a daft answer.

Of course I read the first two lines of your post, and every other line too. You are now saying that you do not believe anything about anything, and yet you post a question about when God created heaven and earth. Not if but when, showing that you believe in that creation. You are pretty good at posing questions, but not so good at answering.

If you have an "open mind" on the one matter (which remember you raised) of Noah's Ark then you accept it is possible, just possible, no need to prove it did happen, that he was able to traverse the whole world and collect a breeding pair of every available species now on the planet and house it on the vessel, along with a few people. I contend that is absolutely impossible even with today's transport. Finding them all would be the first difficulty, and then catching and transporting them back to his ark is just plain impossiblle. Obviously it is simply not big enough. Remember too that nothing that was not on the ark survived. All lifeforms were wiped out.

Read Genesis for the full story. You also accept that it is possible that within the vessel he constructed there was sufficient food for all these creatures - carnivores, omnivores, herbivores, etc. for a little more than 6 months. Remember too the bloke was 600 years old at this time. Do you really have an open mind that this is all possible?

Those who believe that the planet earth (not sure about the rest of the ever expanding universe) was created, mainly make the claim (as Farmerdunk does) that it happened about 6000 years ago and that it occurred over 6 x 24hour days. I cannot answer your question about "the first day" in that creation because I do not believe it happened.

As for my beliefs, they are not "based entirely on evidence that you can comprehend". They are based partly on the fact that there is no evidence that there is a God and I am not prepared to live my life worshipping some unknown and unrevealed creature out of fear that if I do not then evil things will befall me after I die. That is what religion is based upon - fear of what will happen after death if you are a non-believer in life; or alternatively, promises of the good things that will happen after death if you are a believer.

Additionally, I find stories such as that of the ark impossible to believe. Also, of course, the earth has been in existence for a lot longer than 6000 years. All in all, the Bible is not a book to be taken as factual.

 

[caveman]

That is a bit of a daft answer.

Of course I read the first two lines of your post, and every other line too. You are now saying that you do not believe anything about anything, and yet you post a question about when God created heaven and earth. Not if but when, showing that you believe in that creation. You are pretty good at posing questions, but not so good at answering.

If you have an "open mind" on the one matter (which remember you raised) of Noah's Ark then you accept it is possible, just possible, no need to prove it did happen, that he was able to traverse the whole world and collect a breeding pair of every available species now on the planet and house it on the vessel, along with a few people. I contend that is absolutely impossible even with today's transport. Finding them all would be the first difficulty, and then catching and transporting them back to his ark is just plain impossiblle. Obviously it is simply not big enough. Remember too that nothing that was not on the ark survived. All lifeforms were wiped out.

Read Genesis for the full story. You also accept that it is possible that within the vessel he constructed there was sufficient food for all these creatures - carnivores, omnivores, herbivores, etc. for a little more than 6 months. Remember too the bloke was 600 years old at this time. Do you really have an open mind that this is all possible?

Those who believe that the planet earth (not sure about the rest of the ever expanding universe) was created, mainly make the claim (as Farmerdunk does) that it happened about 6000 years ago and that it occurred over 6 x 24hour days. I cannot answer your question about "the first day" in that creation because I do not believe it happened.

As for my beliefs, they are not "based entirely on evidence that you can comprehend". They are based partly on the fact that there is no evidence that there is a God and I am not prepared to live my life worshipping some unknown and unrevealed creature out of fear that if I do not then evil things will befall me after I die. That is what religion is based upon - fear of what will happen after death if you are a non-believer in life; or alternatively, promises of the good things that will happen after death if you are a believer.

Additionally, I find stories such as that of the ark impossible to believe. Also, of course, the earth has been in existence for a lot longer than 6000 years. All in all, the Bible is not a book to be taken as factual.

FFS Mac.
You've obviously got no Idea of what I was suggesting.

 

[Old McDonald]

No, I have not. Might I suggest that is your fault and not mine?

 

[Farmerdunk]

@Old McDonald, like you said if you read Genesis you will read "And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two of two of all flesh,wherein is the breath of life". Would you take that as all the living things went to Noah, he didn't have to search for them?
If it's not 6000ish years old, you must think it is millions/billions of years old?

 

[Old McDonald]

No. Genesis Ch7 v2 says "thou shalt take". I never did work out what the KJV meant "by sevens"

That means he had to go out and actively seek them and "take" them. He must therefore have already taken them before they were required to enter the ark. Presumably, in the believers version of this, they were kept nearby and fed themselves until it was time to enter the ark. The carnivores are the biggest problem in all this theorising. We know all about "the lion shall lie down with the lamb" but what will the lion eat in this case? Anyone who has kept livestock knows the problems of trying to get a single beast which is not co-operative to do what is required. Can you really see some 600 year old, and his 100 year old offspring (Bible information, not KJV if I remember right, that he was 500 when he had children) controlling every living species on the planet and putting them in their required holding pens? Ignore the fact that the vessel is not big enough.

Taking your alternative view that the animals voluntarily moved to the position of the ark, it means they had to know where to go, and had to walk/swim/fly/hop/crawl/slither to somewhere in what is now called the Middle East to be "saved". That is taking anthropomorphism to a new level. Assuming it could be done, some of them would require several or many generations to complete the journey.

Of course I believe the earth is much older than 6000 years. This is a major stumbling block in discussions with those who think it is not, but as I originally posted, I can accept your viewpoint in other threads knowing that is what you believe.

 

[Farmerdunk]

"Thou shalt take", don't you think that is God telling Noah that he has got to take all creatures in the ark with him, not going to find them himself?
Yes he was 500 when he had children! He went into the ark when he was 600 so the ark took 50/75 years to build. Would 50/75 years be long enough to get all the creatures to the ark?