Farm building, change of use

[tim@marford]

I would argue that with the requirements for validation that an amateur effort from a farmer would be returned by the planning validation team before it made it to a case officer.
A CLUED needs a large body of evidence and a well written statement as well as the prerequisite forms and plans.

I have done one in relation to use of a PD building as a domestic garage elsewhere. Sworn statements from actual occupants and others on site over the 10 year period not difficult, although I am uncertain what value would be attributed to bank statements/invoicing etc.
It would be good to combine this into one global clued submission.

 

[Steevo]

OK. Good point. Block walls and secure but uninsulated and not totally weatherproof. Upside is highway access and yard space for deliveries.
What happens to such units in 2025 with the thermal regulations?

Unheated buildings don’t require EPCs. No need to keep energy in if none is being used.

 

[robs1]

If you have any bills from any work involved to convert them plus any rental agreements and bank/accounting records for the rents paid plus sworn statements it should be pretty easy to prove ten years use, as for rates as ex ag buildings and rural as long as the rateable value for each occupier is less than 6 grand there has been nothing payable for many years.
In any case The tenants are responsible for the rates unless the building is empty, however I'm pretty sure from when we went through something similar there is no time limit on how far back they can claim any monies due

 

[tim@marford]

If you have any bills from any work involved to convert them plus any rental agreements and bank/accounting records for the rents paid plus sworn statements it should be pretty easy to prove ten years use, as for rates as ex ag buildings and rural as long as the rateable value for each occupier is less than 6 grand there has been nothing payable for many years.
In any case The tenants are responsible for the rates unless the building is empty, however I'm pretty sure from when we went through something similar there is no time limit on how far back they can claim any monies due

I am confident we can find the necessary evidence. 6 years back has been put forward as the potential claim.
Taking the cowshed bullion store reasoning, has anyone had a recent valuation they care to mention?

 

[Steevo]

If you have any bills from any work involved to convert them plus any rental agreements and bank/accounting records for the rents paid plus sworn statements it should be pretty easy to prove ten years use, as for rates as ex ag buildings and rural as long as the rateable value for each occupier is less than 6 grand there has been nothing payable for many years.
In any case The tenants are responsible for the rates unless the building is empty, however I'm pretty sure from when we went through something similar there is no time limit on how far back they can claim any monies due

I think you’d be in a sticky position if you tried to argue that the tenants are responsible for rates the back rates unless stated in the lease.

 

[robs1]

I think you’d be in a sticky position if you tried to argue that the tenants are responsible for rates the back rates unless stated in the lease.

They may not be happy but the council here have always sent the bills to my tenants even though nothing is payable, we had a couple of units that hadn't been registered and they wanted to know the tenants details . I assume it's like normal council tax the owner only pays if the property is empty. Obviously a current tenant isnt going to pay for a previous one

 

[AJ123]

They will want to send the invoices to the tenant because if the tenant is claiming rate relief elsewhere, they won’t be able to claim relief on that unit.

 

[Bongodog]

Indeed.
The 6 year limit is reassuring and back charging may not be picked up by the council anyway. Only one building is at risk of exceeding the fully rebated limit. The use is glass storage which may not attract a huge valuation.
My plan is to seek council from local Architects about the re-roofing issue and to submit CLUED applications for the non agricultural uses. Meanwhile, finish the roof job so it looks tidy

Thanks for your very helpful input.

The fact that only one unit may exceed the 6 year charging limit seems like a problem in that you need to show 10 years use to claim lawful development.

Having seen these cases before from a Parish Council perspective, whilst parish councils tend to look negatively at both retrospective planning applications and claims for lawful development, planning officers treat retrospective in the same way as normal applications, but pay huge attention to lawful development claims.
You need some very professional agents working on your behalf to succeed, don't try it yourself.

 

[Dookist]

So as I see it you have 3 options:

1. Cease the use and return the buildings to agricultural use;
2. Apply for a CLUED for 10 years use and run the risk of the VOA and Council seeing rates from previous years;
3. Apply for retrospective planning permission citing a shorter period of unlawful use but accept the higher costs of the application including third party consultants with no assurance it will be approved.

Hi.... sorry for butting in, but can a local planning authority take enforcement action when there is an extant application for retrospective planning permission for the alleged breach? Or is any enforcement notice suspended pending determination of the application (or the passing of the deadline for the LPA to determine it)?
I think they can enforce whilst the OP is wating to have his application considered and then he might lose the right to appeal... I'm not sure, though... Dx

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Hi.... sorry for butting in, but can a local planning authority take enforcement action when there is an extant application for retrospective planning permission for the alleged breach? Or is any enforcement notice suspended pending determination of the application (or the passing of the deadline for the LPA to determine it)?
I think they can enforce whilst the OP is wating to have his application considered and then he might lose the right to appeal... I'm not sure, though... Dx

The submission of a retrospective application does not automatically pause any enforcement action but in most cases the enforcement team will hold off until the application is determined.

 

[Dookist]

The submission of a retrospective application does not automatically pause any enforcement action but in most cases the enforcement team will hold off until the application is determined.

Thank you for that, George. Am I correct in thinking that if they issued an enforcement notice anyway, the right to appeal under ground (a) would be lost? If so, what would be the consequences? (See below).... Dx

'The local planning authority can decline to determine a retrospective planning application if an enforcement notice has previously been issued (section 70C of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990). No appeal under ground (a) may be made if an enforcement notice is issued within the time allowed for determination of a retrospective planning application.'

 

[Dookist]

I have a very similar problem to the OP, so I should probably start my own thread on here... Dx

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Thank you for that, George. Am I correct in thinking that if they issued an enforcement notice anyway, the right to appeal under ground (a) would be lost? If so, what would be the consequences? (See below).... Dx

'The local planning authority can decline to determine a retrospective planning application if an enforcement notice has previously been issued (section 70C of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990). No appeal under ground (a) may be made if an enforcement notice is issued within the time allowed for determination of a retrospective planning application.'

I am checking with the boss but I believe that if there is a live enforcement notice then this is correct. If there has just been communication stating they intend to enforce then it does not.
If an enforcement notice has been issued they would need to appeal the enforcement notice before seeking the retrospective planning permission.

 

[robs1]

They will issue an enforcement notice to stop the clock ticking on either the four or ten year rule,

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Thank you for that, George. Am I correct in thinking that if they issued an enforcement notice anyway, the right to appeal under ground (a) would be lost? If so, what would be the consequences? (See below).... Dx

'The local planning authority can decline to determine a retrospective planning application if an enforcement notice has previously been issued (section 70C of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990). No appeal under ground (a) may be made if an enforcement notice is issued within the time allowed for determination of a retrospective planning application.'

Ok so I wasn't completely wrong but the quote there stops the applicant having the opportunity to appeal a refusal on planning grounds twice. It is stating that you can not appeal the enforcement action under ground (a) and have the planning application determined allowing the right of appeal that way l.

They will issue an enforcement notice to stop the clock ticking on either the four or ten year rule,

Exactly, I was just speaking to my boss and he said this is the main reason for issuing a notice.

 

[Dookist]

They will issue an enforcement notice to stop the clock ticking on either the four or ten year rule,

Ahhh... is that how it works?! Dx

 

[robs1]

Ahhh... is that how it works?! Dx

If they think you are close to the time limit they will issue a notice, its stop people delaying things. Planning is a game you just need to know the rules and dont expect councils to tell you what they are or play fair

 

[Dookist]

Thanks, Robs... I think I've realised this now... yes, I'm 3 years in with unauthorised develoment. Dx

 

[Dookist]

They will issue an enforcement notice to stop the clock ticking on either the four or ten year rule,

Oh.. I'm wondering at what point the clock stops ticking if an enforcement notice is suspended pending the outcome of an appeal? I don't suppose it makes much difference, though... Dx

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Oh.. I'm wondering at what point the clock stops ticking if an enforcement notice is suspended pending the outcome of an appeal? I don't suppose it makes much difference, though... Dx

If an enforcement notice is issued the clock stops there and then. The suspension of the notice is immaterial.