ollie989898
Member
I already use Kyleo are part of the tool kit where it's use is justified. It is not a cheap option, however.
Glyphosate on stubble l/ha
- Thread starter ih1455xl
- Start date
I already use Kyleo are part of the tool kit where it's use is justified. It is not a cheap option, however.
- Location
- the brecks norfolk
Apparently 1lt of mcpa added to 3 lt of 360 glypo is the dogs danglies on problem BLW but labels prohibit it.[emoji6]
1000g of active per ha minimum if you don't want resistance in the future
3L /ha of cheapest generic I can get usually and always seems to work
What are people paying right now £1.85-1.90 /L seems to be the market so it's really surely not worth messing about trying to cut rates !
3L /ha of cheapest generic I can get usually and always seems to work
What are people paying right now £1.85-1.90 /L seems to be the market so it's really surely not worth messing about trying to cut rates !
ollie989898
Member
There are numerous old wives tales tank mixes. I was even told years ago by one bloke whom was adding red diesel of all things to the tank mix to kill blackgrass in his stubbles.
I have a lot of experience of MCPA and it's chemical cousins because I have lots of grass and forage crops to play with, and unfortunately I have to report that MCPA, like 2,4D, Dicamba and 2,4DP and CMPP and fluroxypyr and so on- none of them are universally great because they all have various holes in their activity spectra.
There will be more of this as well in future years, now we are seeing resistance to SUs in broad leaved weeds- hence my preference for pre-em or autumn chemistry etc. I know the SUs are magically selective and very potent in even small doses but the rise of resistant chickweed of all things needs to serve as alarm bells for all of us, so much of our cropping is more and more reliant on SUs because the EU have been banning all the stuff that had to be applied in higher doses- (water framework directive and comparative assessment), putting more and more pressure on them.
- Location
- NSW, Newstralya
with up to a 30 yr history of zero till in places, glyphosate resistance is becoming a massive issue here, as I have documented in other posts, with pics of bad examples on my own farm along non cropping areas such as fencelines & roads & how it has spread into fields
A lot of research & farmer driven innovation is aimed at this
Perennial Rye Grass is the worst for us, but Feather Top Rhodes Grass & Awnless Barnyard Grass ( the latter 2 being summer growing grasses ) are also spreading in their resistance.
"double knock" applications, where an application of paraquat follows 5 - 7 days after glyphosate, strategic cultivation ( no point being locked into any 1 "system" even if you are zero till ) ), crop rotations of different crop types allowing different chemistry, increased use of "spot spraying" using "weed it " technology allowing high rates only on target weeds& not the whole field . . .
Ryegrass resistance happened here before RR was introduced & resistence in general doesn't necessarily correlate with RR use, although obviously RR does increase the selection pressure.
Another weed here which is becoming a problem that no one was aware of 20 - 30 yrs ago is Flax Leaf Fleabane. I don't think it has actually "developed" resistance, but as Ollie said, was probably never that susceptible to glyphosate in the first place. As our cultural & crop practices have changed, so to has our weed spectrum
I would highly encourage everyone to be vigilant in regards to glyphosate resistance early on, as it is such a valuable tool we don't want to lose it
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- Location
- NSW, Newstralya
There are numerous old wives tales tank mixes. I was even told years ago by one bloke whom was adding red diesel of all things to the tank mix to kill blackgrass in his stubbles.
I have a lot of experience of MCPA and it's chemical cousins because I have lots of grass and forage crops to play with, and unfortunately I have to report that MCPA, like 2,4D, Dicamba and 2,4DP and CMPP and fluroxypyr and so on- none of them are universally great because they all have various holes in their activity spectra.
There will be more of this as well in future years, now we are seeing resistance to SUs in broad leaved weeds- hence my preference for pre-em or autumn chemistry etc. I know the SUs are magically selective and very potent in even small doses but the rise of resistant chickweed of all things needs to serve as alarm bells for all of us, so much of our cropping is more and more reliant on SUs because the EU have been banning all the stuff that had to be applied in higher doses- (water framework directive and comparative assessment), putting more and more pressure on them.
not personally, but I know there are issues with SU resistance in areas as well
ollie989898
Member
Do you believe your issues with glyphosate resistance may have stemmed from the rates that were used historically or how it was applied? Glyphosate here has to be the most abused chemical of all if we are perfectly honest.
- Location
- NSW, Newstralya
probably a combination of many factors . . .
in the 80's it was very expensive, so low rates were common. I know of one agronomist at the time who was advocating 300ml of 360 & 30 l water / ha. Admittedly that was targeting small volunteer cereals which are very easy to kill, but still . . . .
Back then Glyphosate was the "magic bullet" which killed everything, I don't think anyone knew or thought about resistance.
Our hot / dry conditions at times have also been an issue with application. Dust from wheeltracks can hinder the effectiveness, it used to be quite common to see a poor kill alongside or in wheeltracks due to that. They all run double nozzles behind wheels now & are much fussier in regard to environmental conditions such as temp & humidity
Glyphosate was / is used extensively by farmers, councils & govt departments spraying non crop areas such as fence lines, along side roads, railway lines etc etc. Obviously in these areas there is no crop competition, rotation of chemistry, or full disturbance cultivation.
When glyphosate first started to be used, it was in "minimum till" situations, so any escapes ( which almost certainly there were ) would not have been that noticeable as there were still cultivations.
Poor crop rotations probably contributed. Back to back cereals certainly didn't help, especially in regards to ryegrass as they have the same growing season
Large field sizes probably also meant that many escapee plants went unnoticed, although I see real benefits now with using drones for field scouting
In this part of NSW we are very fortunate that we have 2 growing seasons a year, very good soils with a high water holding capacity, & a summer dominant rainfall pattern. We can grow a wide variety of crop / plant types in a range of rotations & throughout the year, so we have a lot more rotation options than the bulk of the Australian "wheat belt"
However, taking all the above into consideration, I think the biggest single factor is just the long term history of use. If 99.99% of the population is killed with the first application, give it enough applications over enough years, that 0.01% of escapees eventually becomes 5, 10, or 50%
That's why vigilance is needed & various management techniques adopted before it does become a problem
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ollie989898
Member
Ah so the problem seems to have stemmed from the industry itself, kicking the ass out of it, to put it lightly?
It is interesting to me that we have posters here giving out very clear and valid warnings about the dangers of low rates, (and justifiably so), and the abuse of products because of the potential consequences. And yet, would you believe, on this very same forum, I have seen people told/advised not to bother with pre-ems or autumn residual chemistry in various crops, and simply blast the weeds in the spring with X and Y or words amounting to that same effect?
You would think that with this resistance thing it would be easy to recognise that relying too heavily on one product whilst totally avoiding others, is in fact two sides of the same coin?
Likewise, the wholescale use of various particular actives over thousands of acres with nary a glance, use of that kind is surely going to play into the hands of weeds in terms of resistance?
- Location
- NSW, Newstralya
yes, here, it is purely the agricultural industries themselves who are to blame for our current resistance issues
to be fair, we had a lot less knowledge about such thnigs 20 - 30 yrs ago, but today, with the knowledge & the many documented cases of resistance recorded around the world, ignorance is no longer an excuse
it stands to reason, if you continue to use the same sheep drench, the same herbicide, the same insecticide, the same anti biotic, over & over again, then you are going to run into problems
that is way it is never good to be complacent, or think that your system cant be improved or adapted in some way.
What may be considered "best practice" today, may well prove to cause other problems decades later. But that's a whole other thread including N, climate change, regenerative farming, etc etc which Im not going to start a fight here
to be fair, we had a lot less knowledge about such thnigs 20 - 30 yrs ago, but today, with the knowledge & the many documented cases of resistance recorded around the world, ignorance is no longer an excuse
it stands to reason, if you continue to use the same sheep drench, the same herbicide, the same insecticide, the same anti biotic, over & over again, then you are going to run into problems
that is way it is never good to be complacent, or think that your system cant be improved or adapted in some way.
What may be considered "best practice" today, may well prove to cause other problems decades later. But that's a whole other thread including N, climate change, regenerative farming, etc etc which Im not going to start a fight here
SilliamWhale
Member
Try to keep glyphosate usage down to once a year and resistant should be very much reduced.
Add a year of grass and try to skip a year in crop (eg Clearfield) and then maybe we can get glyphosate down to 50% less
Add a year of grass and try to skip a year in crop (eg Clearfield) and then maybe we can get glyphosate down to 50% less
Young man.There are numerous old wives tales tank mixes. I was even told years ago by one bloke whom was adding red diesel of all things to the tank mix to kill blackgrass in his stubbles.
I have a lot of experience of MCPA and it's chemical cousins because I have lots of grass and forage crops to play with, and unfortunately I have to report that MCPA, like 2,4D, Dicamba and 2,4DP and CMPP and fluroxypyr and so on- none of them are universally great because they all have various holes in their activity spectra.
There will be more of this as well in future years, now we are seeing resistance to SUs in broad leaved weeds- hence my preference for pre-em or autumn chemistry etc. I know the SUs are magically selective and very potent in even small doses but the rise of resistant chickweed of all things needs to serve as alarm bells for all of us, so much of our cropping is more and more reliant on SUs because the EU have been banning all the stuff that had to be applied in higher doses- (water framework directive and comparative assessment), putting more and more pressure on them.
I can assure you the red diesel is not an old wifes tale,try it on Horse tail (only spot sprayed )totaly destroys it.And before you question this it was suggested by an ex monsanto rep many years ago
I use gly 1x year on 80% of my acreage and no more than twice on 20% of that. It's when l dessicate a break crop and then do a stale seed bed before ww that is the scenario l don't like. If no BG l sometimes just try and kill off the stale seedbed with cultivations.
- Location
- Darlington
+1 for LI-700
Young man.
I can assure you the red diesel is not an old wifes tale,try it on Horse tail (only spot sprayed )totaly destroys it.And before you question this it was suggested by an ex monsanto rep many years ago
Biggest rip of is these ammonium sulphate wetters - AS cost us 7p?/L to make but is sold for several £ / L as a glyphosate improver
SilliamWhale
Member
How much AS do you use and how do you use it? Just chuck prills in the sprayer is it?
- Location
- NSW, Newstralya
we might do a glyphosate spray 6 or 7 times during a long fallow ( 8 - 12 month ) phase . . .
AS is very popular here as an additive, works well
Agent Orange in the Vietnam War ( or the American War as they call it ) was mixed with diesel as a carrier I believe
Diesel is / was used here for glyphosate in spot spraying situations of woody weeds ( trees / shrubs ) such as acacia, eucalypts & pines with success. Didn't evaporate like water
3000L liquid i mix a 3 gallon bucket full of AS prills when spraying glyphosphate.
But the prills are vigorusly mixed in a handler first.
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
<£40/20L? That would be nice. Nearer £55-60 here, but admittedly in (much) smaller quantities.
Making your own is illegal according to the label for 2,4 D. Kyleo is the best option here but there's a drilling interval & I'd be wary of using it before DD osr. Shark will do it too but there's a 1 month drilling interval.
The small print: Always read the labels. Advice on the internet is worth what you paid for it! Best to consult an agronomist directly, even though there are lots of agronomists and BASIS trained farmers in here.