Herbal Leys, Are They Worth The Cost?

[Frank-the-Wool]

I am becoming very disenchanted with growing Herbal leys.
Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I cannot get them to last.
I have a feeling that growing them on heavy wet clay land is not suitable. They start off very well and we try not to overgraze and fence in blocks. We rest it during the winter and have just lightly grazed now.
The Chicory soon disappears and then by year three it is all grass as this dominates without any being planted, which smothers the Clover.

Some of them become full of thistles and nettles within a couple of years.
This being an important part of payments for SFI on a grass farm looks to be a non starter.

Or is it my management?

 

[BenAdamsAgri]

I was under the impression they were only supposed to last 2/3 years anyways

 

[milkloss]

Sheep will kill off anything fancy pretty quick. They’ll pick the best stuff and the last thing to go is the grass so it all looks lovely until then.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Something not right if your losing clover as well, what clover are you growing ,but you have to build a system around Herbal leys not a Ley around a Systems ,they won't suit all systems or all soils , but clover should grow on most

 

[Ysgythan]

I am becoming very disenchanted with growing Herbal leys.
Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I cannot get them to last.
I have a feeling that growing them on heavy wet clay land is not suitable. They start off very well and we try not to overgraze and fence in blocks. We rest it during the winter and have just lightly grazed now.
The Chicory soon disappears and then by year three it is all grass as this dominates without any being planted, which smothers the Clover.

Some of them become full of thistles and nettles within a couple of years.
This being an important part of payments for SFI on a grass farm looks to be a non starter.

Or is it my management?

No, they don’t last. We undersow them with PRG and find it a good way to establish a new ley.

 

[Troward]

I am becoming very disenchanted with growing Herbal leys.
Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I cannot get them to last.
I have a feeling that growing them on heavy wet clay land is not suitable. They start off very well and we try not to overgraze and fence in blocks. We rest it during the winter and have just lightly grazed now.
The Chicory soon disappears and then by year three it is all grass as this dominates without any being planted, which smothers the Clover.

Some of them become full of thistles and nettles within a couple of years.
This being an important part of payments for SFI on a grass farm looks to be a non starter.

Or is it my management?

I hope not, but suspicious of them too. Very expensive for it just to last a few years.

We're on year 2 of ours, and on weald clay. In a field ours were set stocked in for longer (and I wouldn't even say they were heavily set stocked!) then things like chicory have vanished. On another field we have rotated quite quickly and grazed in the wet bits of this winter, and it seems to be coming back quite strongly. I'll wait another couple of years before I pass proper judgement.

A lot of the mixes don't have white clover (I think something defra have decided they dont like ) but we added quite a bit....thought if everything else is gone we should at least have that!

If we sow again, then I'd be tempted to cut out half of the ingredients....

 

[Bob the beef]

Given up on herbal leys. As said above get at most 2 seasons before all you’re left with
is prg. Too expensive for that

local guy who is big into various forages told me to forget about herbal leys until you have completely mastered grass and clover

 

[Macsky]

Is there any part of the herbal portion of it persisting? Some stuff suiting more than other stuff?

 

[steveR]

I have had some limited success on herbal leys here, mainly when I am mowing them!! Leaving VERY long stubbles, I get decent regrowth, which I can then graze lightly later in teh season/ TBH. the best HL are where stock stay off, I just apply FYM... I know, I know, I speak sacrilege!!

I suspect it is all down to the grazing that is a struggle to manage unless you are into the very organised mob rotation regime.

Keeping enough plants to smother new weeds is a problem, and I am in a constant battle with boar thistle here in the HL.

 

[In the pit]

From positive farmers conference

 

[Troward]

Is there any part of the herbal portion of it persisting? Some stuff suiting more than other stuff?

I think plantain is hardier to persistent grazing/shorter rotations than chicory, but again, will have to see in the next few years.

 

[Kevtherev]

Stick to ryegrass Timothy and clover based leys spend the money difference between herbal leys on reseeding more of the farm regularly.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Is there any part of the herbal portion of it persisting? Some stuff suiting more than other stuff?

Best way to find that out is add a bit to a seed mix and see how it does
A lot add Chicory and Plantain , that won't cost a lot along with that they up the clover a bit ,not much call for the other Herbs , unless it's within a Scheme

 

[Troward]

Just remembered - before he passed, I showed my grandad (in his 90's.... very long, mixed career in farming) the herbal stuff. It was just after we planted it and I asked him his thoughts...he said he'd done the same thing when he was younger and not to bother

Nothing new...

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Given up on herbal leys. As said above get at most 2 seasons before all you’re left with
is prg. Too expensive for that

local guy who is big into various forages told me to forget about herbal leys until you have completely mastered grass and clover

I don't put prg in mine, only 4kg cocksfoot and 2 (IIRC) of Timothy per ha.

Are you mob stocking, paddock grazing or set stocking?

Also are you dosing with N fert?

 

[Frank-the-Wool]

So the consensus seems to be that they are a waste of time.
So where does this fit in with the SFI to get the higher payment then?

 

[The Ruminant]

I mob graze mine and love them. They persist and persist and persist. The cattle are really contented and very healthy on them. The soil has improved dramatically too. I wouldn't go back to straight grasses or grass/ clover mix.
(One lasted 5-6 years and was still going strong whilst mob grazed, then was set stocked and several of the herbs disappeared. Not a surprise when you understand about growing points on the plant.)

 

[Troward]

I mob graze mine and love them. They persist and persist and persist. The cattle are really contented and very healthy on them. The soil has improved dramatically too. I wouldn't go back to straight grasses or grass/ clover mix.
(One lasted 5-6 years and was still going strong whilst mob grazed, then was set stocked and several of the herbs disappeared. Not a surprise when you understand about growing points on the plant.)

Is there a chance that they are better suited to cattle that sheep? I have put both on ours and think it did well under the cows. Not so sure about the sheep.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I mob graze mine and love them. They persist and persist and persist. The cattle are really contented and very healthy on them. The soil has improved dramatically too. I wouldn't go back to straight grasses or grass/ clover mix.
(One lasted 5-6 years and was still going strong whilst mob grazed, then was set stocked and several of the herbs disappeared. Not a surprise when you understand about growing points on the plant.)

It's not a waste of time Frank the Wool it don't suit your farming system

 

[The Ruminant]

Is there a chance that they are better suited to cattle that sheep? I have put both on ours and think it did well under the cows. Not so sure about the sheep.

Possibly, though I suspect its more about length of exposure to grazing than type of grazing animal. I suspect sheep will damage susceptible herbs more quickly than cattle will though, so sort of agree with you