Herbal Leys, Are They Worth The Cost?

[steveR]

That's my thoughts too, but how most of us manage sheep vs cows means it'd be much simpler to manage for cows. Oh, also, the scald on lambs this year was horrific on herbals when rested for too long

Hmmmm. I was wondering about scald looking at the longer growth on one HL lasy year. I am going to be finishing lambs on it again this time... dry weather permitting

 

[Troward]

Hmmmm. I was wondering about scald looking at the longer growth on one HL lasy year. I am going to be finishing lambs on this time... weather permitting

Yep, it's definitely an issue. As mentioned above, I did have quite a lot of scald in that group, but they seemed to fatten better regardless

I'm sure genetics are a big part of it, and we're moving towards sheep that I hope have better feet, but our current suffolk x lambs aren't exactly renowned for being good on their toes . You only have to look at some of the grass in the leys and realise its going to be a problem, but enough people do graze these leys that I'm sure it can be tackled with the right sheep.

 

[steveR]

Yep, it's definitely an issue. As mentioned above, I did have quite a lot of scald in that group, but they seemed to fatten better regardless

I'm sure genetics are a big part of it, and we're moving towards sheep that I hope have better feet, but our current suffolk x lambs aren't exactly renowned for being good on their toes . You only have to look at some of the grass in the leys and realise its going to be a problem, but enough people do graze these leys that I'm sure it can be tackled with the right sheep.

Well TBH, the EC have not shown too much/any problems, so far...

 

[Troward]

Well TBH, teh EC have not shown too much/any problems so far...

Suffolk Mules are easy care aren't they?

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Lambs coming off herbal leys have outperformed those on prg/wc this year. And it kept much, much better in the drought.

This 100 % .


It's gets more enquiries for lamb fatenning than anything else ,word is spreading

 

[Troward]

This 100 % .


It's gets more enquiries for lamb fatenning than anything else ,word is spreading

I think you're about to get 'buried' again for that

 

[Kevtherev]

I'm not sure animals take longer to fatten off them. That's quite the reverse of anything I've heard from those dabbling with them.

Persistency and weed ingress are the biggest complaints I ever here.

Herbal leys suit some farms and systems but can make agronomy difficult. ie docks in a herbal ley.

 

[Kevtherev]

Moss Heather Braken and Rushes here and a bit of Plantain on the drier parts , nothing much that comes in a seed bag to you that's for sure
I did a Plantain Clover Chicory, Ryegrass Mix for a farmer in Yorkshire to fatten lambs on ,farmer said he not seen anything like it and just ordered some more

It saddens me that those who are exploring different systems in farming come on here to read they are wasting their time

A farmer in Yorkshire when Hurrels HQ is in Yorkshire
So seed is sent from dereks warehouse or the one at xxxxxxxxx?

 

[Bob the beef]

I don't put prg in mine, only 4kg cocksfoot and 2 (IIRC) of Timothy per ha.

Are you mob stocking, paddock grazing or set stocking?

Also are you dosing with N fert?

Was rotational grazing and no N

 

[steveR]

I have a friend near Mach, who was asking me about tapping into some Welsh enviro money and establishing some HL on his holding. He had seen some of my fields.

I think I have dissuaded him now, after hearing this was going to be established by stitching into an old PP. My response was "not a chance"... The seed bank of the established species will smother any HL within 2 years, if he is lucky. We agreed, that stitching in a clover mix had more chance of working. At the heart of the project, was low input, but high output grassland for finishing his lambs.

 

[Troward]

I have a friend near Mach, who was asking me about tapping into some Welsh enviro money and establishing some HL on his holding. He had seen some of my fields.

I think I have dissuaded him now, after hearing this was going to be established by stitching into an old PP. My response was "not a chance"... The seed bank of the established species will smother any HL within 2 years, if he is lucky. We agreed, that stitching in a clover mix had more chance of working. At the heart of the project, was low input, but high output grassland for finishing his lambs.

We dd'd ours into a 2 x root crop. Came up really well and very few things present that we didn't plant (other than a barsteward large patch of thistles that came up after I stupidly hit a solitary thistle with a stick 2 years ago ).

Also had the pp grass run back from the roots that just got sprayed off and dd'd in. Here the herbs have actually done very well, but the grass has reverted to weed grasses and none of the grasses planted came up (presume wire worm related?)

 

[steveR]

We dd'd ours into a 2 x root crop. Came up really well and very few things present that we didn't plant (other than a barsteward large patch of thistles that came up after I stupidly hit a solitary thistle with a stick 2 years ago ).

Also had the pp grass run back from the roots that just got sprayed off and dd'd in. Here the herbs have actually done very well, but the grass has reverted to weed grasses and none of the grasses planted came up (presume wire worm related?)

I pointed out the issue of wireworm too.... I think that might have been the killer, when he asked what couild be used as a control. "Rooks", I said!!...

My HL's have all gone into arable land, DD post harvest mostly. I need a new block next Autumn, and might spray out a small TG area and pop a forage crop in over summer, then HL in early Sept.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

A farmer in Yorkshire when Hurrels HQ is in Yorkshire
So seed is sent from dereks warehouse or the one at xxxxxxxxx?

Depends if I'm up that way , but they are my mixes,

 

[exmoor dave]

@Frank-the-Wool I think a big issue with herbal leys and sheep is the 3-6wks of set stocking outdoor lambing late march and april, just when the herbs are starting to show. The ewes will likely just graze the herbs to death.

As we're working around reseeding lambing fields after roots, we're sticking to grass/ clover leys and just putting 1.5 - 2kg/ac of chicory, plaintain and red clover in the mix, mainly to get the benefit in the first year or two.

Then planning something with more herbs on the fields unsuitable for lambing in (footpaths), but still good productive ground, to use as finishing blocks for 4-5 yrs between brassicas

 

[Frank-the-Wool]

@Frank-the-Wool I think a big issue with herbal leys and sheep is the 3-6wks of set stocking outdoor lambing late march and april, just when the herbs are starting to show. The ewes will likely just graze the herbs to death.

As we're working around reseeding lambing fields after roots, we're sticking to grass/ clover leys and just putting 1.5 - 2kg/ac of chicory, plaintain and red clover in the mix, mainly to get the benefit in the first year or two.

Then planning something with more herbs on the fields unsuitable for lambing in (footpaths), but still good productive ground, to use as finishing blocks for 4-5 yrs between brassicas

I am not sure we are over grazing. We have tried to allow the HL's to get away at this time of the year and probably won't graze until mid to late April.
We tend to split each block into 3, and so each block is grazed for around 2 weeks.

It is the grass that seems to be taking over and in 2 or 3 years is very much the dominant species.
I am sure you are right that it is better to have the grass/clover leys and perhaps put a token amount of Plantain and Chicory. I cannot see the point in paying for these very expensive HL mixes with tiny amounts of unusual plants that are gone in a few weeks.

 

[andybk]

From positive farmers conference

Must be newer varieties in those,i have a few fields i have on a fbt (have had for at least last 40 years) have nearly all those species in them , they are a picture when made for hay, fair bit of sheep parsley , red clover, birds foot trefoil , all sorts of herbs and flowers , but dont qualify as they need to be newly sown to get the sub , you couldnt make it up , all grazed by sheep apart when put up for conservation ,

 

[som farmer]

we have leys with a small% of prg, dry farm, and prg doesn't persist.

we use chicory and plantain, on dry ground, they are very good, along with c/foot, fesques w/clover.

but we rotationally graze, our dairy is seldom on a piece of grazing, for 24/36 hours, elec fence and back fence.

on some very dry ground, plantain is taking over, with clover, that is about all that is useful, when really dry, self seeded. Not much chicory there, but wasn't included.

generally, on our dry banks, those two have done very well, and all grazing will have some in them.

some patches, chicory not so good, tends to bolt.

biggest problem, weed control, its topping or nothing.

The mix of 'old' grass varieties, those herbs, and lots of clover, seem to suit us well, cows like them, and they give us grazing, when prg, is just putting up seed heads, or died off.

rotational grazing, and recovery time, is probably the key. Seems to come back after cutting as well.

 

[Enry]

Sowing Herbal Leys with BGS Winner Marc Jones

Germinal met with BGS Grassland Farmer of the Year 2021 Marc Jones to find out how he won by sowing herbal leys.

germinal.co.uk

Why a dry upland farm is switching to herbal leys - Farmers Weekly

Increasing spells of dry weather have prompted beef and sheep farmer Marc Jones to roll out a programme of reseeding with herbal leys across more than

www.fwi.co.uk

one mans meat.......

 

[Kevtherev]

Sowing Herbal Leys with BGS Winner Marc Jones

Germinal met with BGS Grassland Farmer of the Year 2021 Marc Jones to find out how he won by sowing herbal leys.

germinal.co.uk

Why a dry upland farm is switching to herbal leys - Farmers Weekly

Increasing spells of dry weather have prompted beef and sheep farmer Marc Jones to roll out a programme of reseeding with herbal leys across more than

www.fwi.co.uk

one mans meat.......

Trefnant hall is a very very dry farm and those leys are suiting his system.
Cocksfoot inclusion has helped massively.

 

[som farmer]

1970's at college, we were told c/foot, fesques etc, had had their days, no good in modern farming.

2020's happily using them again.

but climate pattern has changed, our summers are drier, and rain fall is heavier, meaning more runs straight off.

no idea if this is the new normal, but the 'experts' tell us it is ! So moving along that route, and quite happy if summers are not so dry.

But, you have to adapt, having insufficient fodder, for 3 years on the trot, sooner be safe than sorry.