High magnesium soils

[Warnesworth]

We aren’t applying sulphur to the soils ...... given up on that years ago. The sulphur is for the growing crop.

I think that's what I said.

 

[warksfarmer]

I think that's what I said.

I know but you inferred we were applying spring Sulphur to increase soil levels which in turn would reduce magnesium levels ..... that’s for idiots.

 

[Warnesworth]

I know but you inferred we were applying spring Sulphur to increase soil levels which in turn would reduce magnesium levels ..... that’s for idiots.

I was trying to reduce the level of mis-information as I thought your post could be misunderstood by some to suggest that applying 'nearly 100kgs' of sulphur would affect the soil magnesium levels when it won't, especially if spring applied.

Sulphur does reduce magnesium levels in some circumstances, its basic chemistry, no more, no-less. It's only idiotic when you apply the wrong product, probably because you got a recommendation from a company trying to get rid of a load of recycled gypsum, or some bloke on the forum did it and it worked for him, but in reality his situation was completely different. As I say, all recommendations should be based on a thorough soil analysis.

 

[warksfarmer]

I was trying to reduce the level of mis-information as I thought your post could be misunderstood by some to suggest that applying 'nearly 100kgs' of sulphur would affect the soil magnesium levels when it won't, especially if spring applied.

Sulphur does reduce magnesium levels in some circumstances, its basic chemistry, no more, no-less. It's only idiotic when you apply the wrong product, probably because you got a recommendation from a company trying to get rid of a load of recycled gypsum, or some bloke on the forum did it and it worked for him, but in reality his situation was completely different. As I say, all recommendations should be based on a thorough soil analysis.

Albrect analysis for us but what we tried didn’t work. We’ve found the best thing to do is increase OM which makes the soils easier to work and overal healthier reducing diseases in the crops but at the same time living with the high mag levels which also lock up N, so we can’t reduce our N levels without affecting yield.

 

[Brisel]

@Brisel Interesting. Has this received sewage cake?

Yes, I had a policy of 20 t/ha digested cake every 3-4 years but Olsen P levels have climbed to these levels so I’ve backed off and am investing in more K and kieserite. P and K has been as various Fibrophos grades at variable rates to top up the lower spots so lots of calcium has been added to the chalk.

 

[Wobblebox]

It's ok @Brisel, I don't mind you hijacking
Thanks @Warnesworth, very interesting what you say about prilled lime, how does price compare to ag lime? I was under the impression that prilled lime was a quick fix and didn't stay in the soil very long whereas ag lime was a more long term solution (I suppose that's down to particle size?)

 

[Warnesworth]

Albrect analysis for us but what tried didn’t work. We’ve found the best thing to do is increase OM which makes the souls easier to work and overal healthier reducing diseases in the crops but at the same time living with the high mag levels which also lock up N, so we can’t reduce our N levels without affecting yield.

Absolutely, can't disagree with that. Soil management is really easy, put in more carbon than you take out. By increase the carbon content you are increasing the OM or vice versa, whichever way you want to look at it.

'Albrecht analysis' What a wonderfully misconstrued term that has become over the years. What most people mean is they had a cat-ion exchange analysis!

 

[Warnesworth]

It's ok @Brisel, I don't mind you hijacking
Thanks @Warnesworth, very interesting what you say about prilled lime, how does price compare to ag lime? I was under the impression that prilled lime was a quick fix and didn't stay in the soil very long whereas ag lime was a more long term solution (I suppose that's down to particle size?)

I personally don't think it works out any more expensive this way, maybe a bit but I believe you get what you pay for. with ag-lime, in my experience and I have plenty of evidence to back this up, its not sold at the claimed specification so actually its probably more expensive because its not actually working as you are led to believe.

You are right, but then no calcium hangs around too long in its fine ground form because it reacts and moves through the soil profile with water. Research done in the 1970's suggests that you also needed to apply approximately 2-3kg of Calcium carbonate to balance every kg of N applied as ammonium nitrate. Hence the basis of my annual application comments above.

So the theory with ag-lime is that the fine ground bit reacts fastest then over the following years the larger bits break down to fine stuff which then also react. But depending of the grind size and parent material this is another case of 'stick your finger in the air' as far as I am concerned.

 

[phil]

Do you get magnesium deficiency in plant ?
Often when levels are high it’s locked up and you need to apply foliar ?

 

[Warnesworth]

Yes, I had a policy of 20 t/ha digested cake every 3-4 years but Olsen P levels have climbed to these levels so I’ve backed off and am investing in more K and kieserite. P and K has been as various Fibrophos grades at variable rates to top up the lower spots so lots of calcium has been added to the chalk.

I not sure that kieserite will do much for you, except perhaps drain your bank balance. I have never seen good results from kieserite, unless you can convince me otherwise.

 

[Warnesworth]

Do you get magnesium deficiency in plant ?
Often when levels are high it’s locked up and you need to apply foliar ?

Yes, very much so. Most crops show magnesium deficiency to some extent. Magnesium is essential for chlorophyll production, foliar application is cheap and easy, so why wouldn't you?

 

[Brisel]

I not sure that kieserite will do much for you, except perhaps drain your bank balance. I have never seen good results from kieserite, unless you can convince me otherwise.

I’ll see what tissue testing says, though that’s only a snapshot and part of the picture.

So, how else do I get enough magnesium into the plant? Or calcium? Is my problem the inverse of Wobblebox’s or is it more complex than that?

Are you just going to recommend of some of your Maxi Phi products? That's cyncial but trying to navigate the murky path into better soil management which is littered with sales agendae that put me right off!

 

[Flat 10]

What is problem with kieserite?

 

[phil]

Yes, very much so. Most crops show magnesium deficiency to some extent. Magnesium is essential for chlorophyll production, foliar application is cheap and easy, so why wouldn't you?

That was directed as opening poster

We all know you sell stuff

 

[Brisel]

What is problem with kieserite?

It's bloody expensive for a start!

I think where Warnesworth is coming from is that applying a product containing Ca, Mg, P, K etc does not guarantee that that element will be available to the crop. It depends on what is going on with the chemical compound it is delivered in and what else in the soil may be surpressing the processes to make it available. A simple lab test for each macronutrient does not necessarily mean it is going to make much difference to the crop. I've had Olsen P index 0 yielding 11 t/ha of wheat year in year out. Pouring P on as DAP and MAP over the years to build indices to 2+ and cover theoretical offtake did not improve yields any further.

Can you get enough macronutrients into the plant by foliar tonics? The established RB209 Fertiliser manual would have you believe that you'd flatten the crop under the weight of foliar stuff if that's the only way you choose to deliver it. There's a good profit margin in foliar feeds - none of the registration costs of pesticides & not much in each can either. You can see why the likes of Agrii are selling them hard.

 

[franklin]

Can you get enough macronutrients into the plant by foliar tonics? The established RB209 Fertiliser manual would have you believe that you'd flatten the crop under the weight of foliar stuff if that's the only way you choose to deliver it. There's a good profit margin in foliar feeds - none of the registration costs of pesticides & not much in each can either. You can see why the likes of Agrii are selling them hard.

Perhaps we should all use Maxi-Phi?

 

[Flat 10]

It's bloody expensive for a start!

I think where Warnesworth is coming from is that applying a product containing Ca, Mg, P, K etc does not guarantee that that element will be available to the crop. It depends on what is going on with the chemical compound it is delivered in and what else in the soil may be surpressing the processes to make it available. A simple lab test for each macronutrient does not necessarily mean it is going to make much difference to the crop. I've had Olsen P index 0 yielding 11 t/ha of wheat year in year out. Pouring P on as DAP and MAP over the years to build indices to 2+ and cover theoretical offtake did not improve yields any further.

Can you get enough macronutrients into the plant by foliar tonics? The established RB209 Fertiliser manual would have you believe that you'd flatten the crop under the weight of foliar stuff if that's the only way you choose to deliver it. There's a good profit margin in foliar feeds - none of the registration costs of pesticides & not much in each can either. You can see why the likes of Agrii are selling them hard.

Thanks. But I was asking @Warnesworth why he thought the Mg wouldn't be available. I use it in similar situations to you.

 

[Brisel]

Thanks. But I was asking @Warnesworth why he thought the Mg wouldn't be available. I use it in similar situations to you.

Yeah, sorry for jumping in. I have been looking around his websites which aren't far from what I'm learning from other soil health practitioners.

 

[Cab-over Pete]

I personally don't think it works out any more expensive this way, maybe a bit but I believe you get what you pay for. with ag-lime, in my experience and I have plenty of evidence to back this up, its not sold at the claimed specification so actually its probably more expensive because its not actually working as you are led to believe.

You are right, but then no calcium hangs around too long in its fine ground form because it reacts and moves through the soil profile with water. Research done in the 1970's suggests that you also needed to apply approximately 2-3kg of Calcium carbonate to balance every kg of N applied as ammonium nitrate. Hence the basis of my annual application comments above.

So the theory with ag-lime is that the fine ground bit reacts fastest then over the following years the larger bits break down to fine stuff which then also react. But depending of the grind size and parent material this is another case of 'stick your finger in the air' as far as I am concerned.

Of course I’m sure you meant to say in this post, as well as others, that there are several quarries in the country that actually DO supply excellence ground lime samples with good NV and reactivity figures and that there are very good operators to apply it to good effect.

I only say that because I would be highly surprised if, after many decades of farmers using ground aglime, you are the only person who knows what you think is the truth. Surely, if it’s as big a waste of time and money as you suggest, most farmers would have noticed by now.

I also get tired of people like you suggesting that the service people like me provide is anything more than racing around chucking crap over the hedge to the neighbours place. Please don’t tar all of us with the same brush.

I wonder why you would dismiss aglime so wholeheartedly?

Hmmmmm......

I have no real idea who you are but I have an inkling you are somebody who’s opinion I have greatly respected in the past.

Keep trying.

 

[Warnesworth]

Of course I’m sure you meant to say in this post, as well as others, that there are several quarries in the country that actually DO supply excellence ground lime samples with good NV and reactivity figures and that there are very good operators to apply it to good effect.

I only say that because I would be highly surprised if, after many decades of farmers using ground aglime, you are the only person who knows what you think is the truth. Surely, if it’s as big a waste of time and money as you suggest, most farmers would have noticed by now.

I also get tired of people like you suggesting that the service people like me provide is anything more than racing around chucking crap over the hedge to the neighbours place. Please don’t tar all of us with the same brush.

I wonder why you would dismiss aglime so wholeheartedly?

Hmmmmm......

I have no real idea who you are but I have an inkling you are somebody who’s opinion I have greatly respected in the past.

Keep trying.

Wooaah there @Cab-over Pete
Before we start chucking personal insults around, I am just speaking as I observe, I wasn't suggesting that anyone is offering a poor service, racing around or chucking crap over the hedge. Its only this year that I have actually started testing the ag-lime, and it was due to a suspicion that it's not quite what it's claimed to be. I didn't find one that matched the specification. If you want me to test the quarries that you use, I'd be happy to do so. I think everyone has right to know if what they are being sold isn't whats claimed.
I am not doing down ag-lime, quite the opposite, I recommend a lot of it, ideally in prilled form, for all the reasons mentioned above. If anything I think a major problem with many soils is that they are calcium deficient. I don't sell ag-lime or prilled lime, but I do like products that work effectively and in my opinion prilled lime is more effective in a maintenance situation than ag-lime. Becuase it can be applied much more accurately Simple as.