Hydraulic Oils - Expert idvice wanted - AW (with zinc) or not? What grade (ISO v SAE

[Lazy-Farmer]

I have been trying to suss out what hydraulic oils to use on my machinery. I have a Claas tractor (dyna 6 Transmission) and a JCB telehandler. I have been buying oil from my local dealer but also do a lot with industrial oils and can get them in volume at a much better deal but cross referencing is a nightmare.

Struggling to get a proper spec on the oils used in the tractor especially.

Main questions is can you use AW oils with zinc additive in them or should you use a standard oil.

What Grade? Is ISO 46, comparable with 15w-20w ok.

Any oil experts feel free to give any advice.

 

[Mdt]

@Cowabunga

 

[davidroberts30]

Dont use 46 hydraulic in the tractor transmission!

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

Dont use 46 hydraulic in the tractor transmission!

What grade would you suggest.

 

[76masseyman]

Hydraulic oil, as required by your JCB will need to be an ISO 32 or 46 grade. You can use DIN 51524 part 2 or part 3.
A good quality will have rust inhibitors, anti wear and anti foam additives. Look for the main hydraulic specifications of Sauer Danfoss, Bosch Rexroth and Case Poclain. But this isn’t what the Class tractor requires !! And an ISO 46 is only an SAE 20.
The Class transmission will use a UTTO meeting CMS 1145. These transmission lubricants are mostly an SAE 10w/30 grade, although the Hexashift transmission usually ask for an SAE 10w/40 grade, as in the Dynasix MF / Gima trans’.
Transmission oils also carry a minimum GL4 gear oil specification to protect gear train and differential, as well as friction modifiers for powershift clutches and wet brakes, something not found in hydraulic oils.
You could get away with the Class transmission oil in the JCB hydraulics, but not the other way around.

 

[Cowabunga]

Only use oils that meet the general 'standards' recommended by the manufacturer of the components that require lubrication, as a general rule and if, as is obvious, you are unsure.
76masseyman has got it right. The class transmission will need either a 10W/30 or 10W/40[recommended] Super Universal or an SAE 80[approximately] UTTO such as Morris JDF.

SAE80 transmission oil is almost identical in viscosity to SAE20 engine oil, if you can get your head around that, so an ISO 46 can generally be substituted by a 10W30 super universal or any UTTO.
UTTO should never be used in any engine and most Super Universals are not suitable for modern emissionised engines either.

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

Hydraulic oil, as required by your JCB will need to be an ISO 32 or 46 grade. You can use DIN 51524 part 2 or part 3.
A good quality will have rust inhibitors, anti wear and anti foam additives. Look for the main hydraulic specifications of Sauer Danfoss, Bosch Rexroth and Case Poclain. But this isn’t what the Class tractor requires !! And an ISO 46 is only an SAE 20.
The Class transmission will use a UTTO meeting CMS 1145. These transmission lubricants are mostly an SAE 10w/30 grade, although the Hexashift transmission usually ask for an SAE 10w/40 grade, as in the Dynasix MF / Gima trans’.
Transmission oils also carry a minimum GL4 gear oil specification to protect gear train and differential, as well as friction modifiers for powershift clutches and wet brakes, something not found in hydraulic oils.
You could get away with the Class transmission oil in the JCB hydraulics, but not the other way around.

Ideal. That’s just the kind of info I was after.

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

Only use oils that meet the general 'standards' recommended by the manufacturer of the components that require lubrication, as a general rule and if, as is obvious, you are unsure.
76masseyman has got it right. The class transmission will need either a 10W/30 or 10W/40[recommended] Super Universal or an SAE 80[approximately] UTTO such as Morris JDF.

SAE80 transmission oil is almost identical in viscosity to SAE20 engine oil, if you can get your head around that, so an ISO 46 can generally be substituted by a 10W30 super universal or any UTTO.
UTTO should never be used in any engine and most Super Universals are not suitable for modern emissionised engines either.

I understand the difference between engine oils and hydraulic as their is a whole lot of other stuff going on when you add carbon from combustion etc.

So we have one person saying never use 46 in a tractor transmission. One saying it’s a suitable substitute and another with some very good info. I’m still not clear.

obviously saying 46 is a generalisation as you get dozens of different oils in every grade. Mainly 32, 46, 68 etc. But which of these is a UTTO.

I am trying to work out what a UTTO actually is without having to get some sent to a lab for analysis. I realise I could just go get the manufacturers stuff but I’m a bit off a geek when it comes to this kind of thing and although I know a bit about oils I’m no expert but keen to know more and understand what makes them different and worth the price tags

Realistically it’s only a few key things that change if they are rated to ISO standards.

grade

10w - 32
15w/20w - 46
20w - 68
(It’s my understanding that Multi grade oils ie 10w-40 are 40 grade oils with a a low W number meaning it’s good for colder wether than a 20w-40 for example.)


Additives - anti foam, anti wear, corrosion inhibitors, anti freeze agents for low temps etc

Working Temp range

Flash point

vapour pressure

I can’t seem to find the info for the super universal oils or the UTTO to explain what’s different about them from a good quality AW oil of the appropriate grade. Is this that manufactures don’t want to give full data sheets so you can’t properly compare them?

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

So we have one person saying never use 46 in a tractor transmission. One saying it’s a suitable substitute and another with some very good info. I’m still not clear.

I think you need to read all the posts again.

 

[76masseyman]

All the number relate to, wether they’re ISO or SAE, is the thickness ( viscosity ) of the fluid. None of these numbers refer to quality or specification.

 

[multi power]

[QUOTE="Drumbroider, post: 6648387, member: 143591"

So we have one person saying never use 46 in a tractor transmission. One saying it’s a suitable substitute
[/QUOTE]
The 32 and 46 are hydraulic oil NOT TRANSMISSION oil

 

[Cowabunga]

Just how many thousands of litres of each type of oil do you consume annually to even think of buying ‘green barrel’ or bespoke/unusual oil at something of a discount compared to branded lube from reputable established sources?

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

Just how many thousands of litres of each type of oil do you consume annually to even think of buying ‘green barrel’ or bespoke/unusual oil at something of a discount compared to branded lube from reputable established sources?

Not that much. Mostly more interested in learning more about oils.

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

[QUOTE="Drumbroider, post: 6648387, member: 143591"

So we have one person saying never use 46 in a tractor transmission. One saying it’s a suitable substitute

The 32 and 46 are hydraulic oil NOT TRANSMISSION oil
[/QUOTE]

Tractor transmission oil is a type of hydraulic oil, as is ATF, dot 4 etc. The term hydraulic simply means fluid movement in confined space. Tractor transmissions are hydraulically actuated and often are driven by a type of hydraulic pump etc.

Also as discussed they are grades of oil. some of those grades are for hydraulic use some not. They are common grades for journal bearings, ball bearings and a multitude of other applications in industries with very high quality standards etc.

 

[Cowabunga]

The 32 and 46 are hydraulic oil NOT TRANSMISSION oil

Tractor transmission oil is a type of hydraulic oil, as is ATF, dot 4 etc. The term hydraulic simply means fluid movement in confined space. Tractor transmissions are hydraulically actuated and often are driven by a type of hydraulic pump etc.

Also as discussed they are grades of oil. some of those grades are for hydraulic use some not. They are common grades for journal bearings, ball bearings and a multitude of other applications in industries with very high quality standards etc.
[/QUOTE]
Concentrate on ‘standards’. Both American and European performance and viscosity standards. That will put you on the right path rather than guessing and thinking that you know more than you actually do. Forget about the chemistry and think about what the oil is meant to do inside the component apart from lubricate.

 

[Lazy-Farmer]

Tractor transmission oil is a type of hydraulic oil, as is ATF, dot 4 etc. The term hydraulic simply means fluid movement in confined space. Tractor transmissions are hydraulically actuated and often are driven by a type of hydraulic pump etc.

Also as discussed they are grades of oil. some of those grades are for hydraulic use some not. They are common grades for journal bearings, ball bearings and a multitude of other applications in industries with very high quality standards etc.

Concentrate on ‘standards’. Both American and European performance and viscosity standards. That will put you on the right path rather than guessing and thinking that you know more than you actually do. Forget about the chemistry and think about what the oil is meant to do inside the component apart from lubricate.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you on that. the difficulty is very few proper data sheets are available for all the small brand and manufacturers oils. I am making an assumption as my day job involves oil manufacturing (fuels and other things not lube oil) that their is only a few places making these oils and lots of people getting branded blends. Just nobody is sharing the info.

 

[Cowabunga]

Concentrate on ‘standards’. Both American and European performance and viscosity standards. That will put you on the right path rather than guessing and thinking that you know more than you actually do. Forget about the chemistry and think about what the oil is meant to do inside the component apart from lubricate.

I agree with you on that. the difficulty is very few proper data sheets are available for all the small brand and manufacturers oils. I am making an assumption as my day job involves oil manufacturing (fuels and other things not lube oil) that their is only a few places making these oils and lots of people getting branded blends. Just nobody is sharing the info.
[/QUOTE]
The info is in the standards met by the oil verses that required by the application.

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

I agree with you on that. the difficulty is very few proper data sheets are available for all the small brand and manufacturers oils. I am making an assumption as my day job involves oil manufacturing (fuels and other things not lube oil) that their is only a few places making these oils and lots of people getting branded blends. Just nobody is sharing the info.

Most large “quality” or respected/established brands e.g. the likes of Fuchs/Shell/Morris etc will publish and have publicly available/downloadable MSDS and Technical Data Sheets for the majority if not all of their products.

The oil grades and specifications will either fall into one or more independent “industry” classifications usually based on predominant geography of their member (engine or component) manufacturer e.g. ACEA (Europe), API (North America), JASO (Japan) etc

On top of that many OEM engine and machinery manufacturers will have their own in house “quality” standards. For example in off-highway engines you commonly see DQC which is Deutz Quality Control and that has 4 main classes and some in between classes. Similarly JD have their own as do CNH etc etc. In cars and trucks Audi, BMW, Ford and Mercedes and countless others have their own standards.

The manufacturer specific standards can be very hit or miss as to whether a particular oil is certified or periodically re-certified. Thus getting a “common denominator” engine oil can be challenging if the requirement is to meet a specific manufacturer quality standard to say ensure warranty is not affected.

It can be a bit of a minefield.

 

[Gerbert]

If it's any help, my nepphew works at a non franchised dealer so I just asked what they put in similar tractors. If you know someone who knows their stuff and services similar tractors ask them.

 

[renewablejohn]

Just get your oil made to spec. I was struggling for a particular Mercedes hydraulic oil and Crown Oil now manufacture if for me in batches of 250ltrs at a time and I can buy in amounts of 25ltr the remaining unused kept in stock. Even if out of stock there normally able to mix a batch in half a hour.