Ifor Williams vs Graham Edwards

[Highland Mule]

@Cowabunga - any thoughts on how you can comply with the Health and Safety at Work Regulations whilst using rope hooks as lashing points? Do you have a formally recorded risk assessment to justify not following the Codes of Practice, are you only using the hooks for domestic purposes, or what?

 

[Cowabunga]

@Cowabunga - any thoughts on how you can comply with the Health and Safety at Work Regulations whilst using rope hooks as lashing points? Do you have a formally recorded risk assessment to justify not following the Codes of Practice, are you only using the hooks for domestic purposes, or what?

Do you make a risk assessment for every load?
What I have got is an assurance from the manufacturer and two VOSA inspections [where they weren't mentioned] that can be included in any RA I care to do. Straps that exceed the necessary strength and plenty of them for the individual load item so as to be within the 500kg limit of each hook as explained by IW trailers in their answer to me.

Was it you that actually questioned the legality of using straps that exceeded the load limit of the hooks?

Here is IW's answer to my question [the actual question is obvious from the answer] for your edification. I've highlighted the salient points so that you don't miss them.

Please do challenge IW yourself about this since you obviously allege that they are telling porkies.


Thank you for your email.


Yes, it is legal to use ratchet straps on our rope hooks. Our rope hooks allow a load maximum load restraint of 500kg each which is within legal requirement of trailers up to 3500kg. The only time it is illegal to use ratchet straps on rope hooks is on trailers with a towing capacity which exceeds 3500kg; as we do not manufacture trailers above a gross weight of 3500kg this does not apply to our trailers.


So long as your restraint load to each rope hook does not exceed the limit of 500kg, you will have no issues.


I hope this is of use to you. If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us.


Kind regards,

 

[Highland Mule]

Do you make a risk assessment for every load?
What I have got is an assurance from the manufacturer and two VOSA inspections [where they weren't mentioned] that can be included in any RA I care to do. Straps that exceed the necessary strength and plenty of them for the individual load item so as to be within the 500kg limit of each hook as explained by IW trailers in their answer to me.

Was it you that actually questioned the legality of using straps that exceeded the load limit of the hooks?

I don't have to do an RA for every load as my farm is a hobby only and falls outwith the regulations. I also don't need to have a formal written health and safety policy etc.

If I were an employer and the farm fell within the regulations, I'd formally record in an RA every point in which I didn't want to comply with the various CoPs. If I was working to the CoPs, I'd have a simpler RA which stated that all such jobs did so.

I'm not saying you're doing the wrong thing, but I'd suggest that any decisions you have made to deviate from the various CoPs would best be formally recorded in your H&S file.

And no, I'd be quite happy to use straps that exceed the capacity of the lashing points. I'd rate the load restraint at the lower of the two though, obviously.

 

[Dave W]

Do you make a risk assessment for every load?
What I have got is an assurance from the manufacturer and two VOSA inspections [where they weren't mentioned] that can be included in any RA I care to do. Straps that exceed the necessary strength and plenty of them for the individual load item so as to be within the 500kg limit of each hook as explained by IW trailers in their answer to me.

Was it you that actually questioned the legality of using straps that exceeded the load limit of the hooks?

A question I asked earlier but was failed to be answered.
When tightening a strap how do you ensured you don’t exceed the 500kg limit and that during an emergency stop this limit is also not exceeded?

I’m fairly certain if you tighten a strap as hard as you possibly can then this would exceed 500kg. Just an example. Not suggesting you do over tighten.

 

[Cowabunga]

I don't have to do an RA for every load as my farm is a hobby only and falls outwith the regulations. I also don't need to have a formal written health and safety policy etc.

If I were an employer and the farm fell within the regulations, I'd formally record in an RA every point in which I didn't want to comply with the various CoPs. If I was working to the CoPs, I'd have a simpler RA which stated that all such jobs did so.

I'm not saying you're doing the wrong thing, but I'd suggest that any decisions you have made to deviate from the various CoPs would best be formally recorded in your H&S file.

And no, I'd be quite happy to use straps that exceed the capacity of the lashing points. I'd rate the load restraint at the lower of the two though, obviously.

Oh so the regulations don't apply to you as you are not a working farmer and are not registered with a holding number.

I agree with you about the lesser of two ratings in your last paragraph of course but I've been challenged about that as well as other ridiculous points here tonight, such as the trailer/towing vehicle compatibility.

Again I urge you strongly to direct your efforts towards your own clarification with the trailer manufacturer. I've got it in virtual writing, so there is absolutely no ambiguity on my part.

 

[Smiffy101]

A question I asked earlier but was failed to be answered.
When tightening a strap how do you ensured you don’t exceed the 500kg limit and that during an emergency stop this limit is also not exceeded?

I’m fairly certain if you tighten a strap as hard as you possibly can then this would exceed 500kg. Just an example. Not suggesting you do over tighten.

Thats one of the many holes in the plan and part of the reason alpng with the continually ignored fact that the straps once attached to a rope hook are no longer rated as the spread or you go hook to hook move the leaverage out and void the rating of the hook

I always just do the job properly and go to the chassis i would not trust a 2,5 tonne digger to thoose rope hooks regardless if that starts moving there is huge amounts of force involved

 

[Cowabunga]

A question I asked earlier but was failed to be answered.
When tightening a strap how do you ensured you don’t exceed the 500kg limit and that during an emergency stop this limit is also not exceeded?

I’m fairly certain if you tighten a strap as hard as you possibly can then this would exceed 500kg. Just an example. Not suggesting you do over tighten.

This is actually answered in the guidance notes I seem to remember. It has to be estimated. They specifically advise not to over tighten any strap or load, however big or small, but provide no guidance on how to do this, presumably leaving it to the common sense of the operator. They certainly do not advise the use of strain gauges or anything similar but do advise on the angle and positioning of the load, which is equally relevant to whatever class of vehicle is involved. What is important is that the load is not allowed to move, otherwise the lashing load may increase by two to three times.
This is going into irrelevant detail though. The response I got from the trailer manufacturer is clear, simple and unambiguous. That means that it is clear and leaves no room for doubt.

Again I urge you to challenge them on this, if you do not understand or disagree with their answer, which you apparently do. It is your duty to do so and get your own clarification.

 

[Dave W]

This is actually answered in the guidance notes I seem to remember. It has to be estimated. They specifically advise not to over tighten any strap or load, however big or small, but provide no guidance on how to do this, presumably leaving it to the common sense of the operator. They certainly do not advise the use of strain gauges or anything similar but do advise on the angle and positioning of the load, which is equally relevant to whatever class of vehicle is involved. What is important is that the load is not allowed to move, otherwise the lashing load may increase by two to three times.
This is going into irrelevant detail though. The response I got from the trailer manufacturer is clear, simple and unambiguous. That means that it is clear and leaves no room for doubt.

Again I urge you to challenge them on this, if you do not understand or disagree with their answer, which you apparently do. It is your duty to do so and get your own clarification.

You should be an politician. Expert in not answering a direct question.
How do you know you aren’t exerting more than 500kg on your rope hook?
It’s a simple question

 

[Cowabunga]

Thats one of the many holes in the plan and part of the reason alpng with the continually ignored fact that the straps once attached to a rope hook are no longer rated as the spread or you go hook to hook move the leaverage out and void the rating of the hook

I always just do the job properly and go to the chassis i would not trust a 2,5 tonne digger to thoose rope hooks regardless if that starts moving there is huge amounts of force involved

That's why you stop it moving in the first place by using wedges and whatever necessary. In my case I have stated that I use chains, although I see plenty of tractors moved around the country by hauliers with no more than a few five ton rated straps holding them. In some cases from Europe with front tyres of one tractor climbed onto the back tyres of another.

 

[Highland Mule]

No, I have a holding number but my understanding is that I fall outwith the HASAW regs. That means that it would not be possible to prosecute me under them. A bit like you can't be prosecuted under the regs if you hit someone with a golf ball if that is your hobby. Of course, there is still a strong duty of care to the public etc, and there would be plenty of other legislation to worry about (tort) but the legal position isn't constrained by the regs.

I have no doubt that the information you received from Ifor is correct, and that there is no legal impediment to the use of rope hooks, in certain circumstances. I am also very clear that HSE would expect compliance with the CoP to be the desired basis of safety, but would consider any deviation from the various CoPs to be justifiable, after a suitable and sufficient risk assessment. I also note that Ifor claim that their rope hooks are competent to 500kg, but that this conflicts with the CoP which states that rope hooks are not normally rated. That gives me encouragement that the situation is justifiable, but perhaps not yet recorded/ justified. What I would encourage you to do is to record your decision process and justify that in advance of any challenge. If the only law that VOSA/ HSE/ Police can challenge you on is the HASAW regs, then they would struggle to get a successful prosecution against roadside check. Of course, if the unthinkable happens, they would probably find it easy to argue that your RA was unsuitable and insufficient, and you'd be in a bad place.

In the absence of any other legislation that we haven't yet uncovered, of course......

 

[Cowabunga]

You should be an politician. Expert in not answering a direct question.
How do you know you aren’t exerting more than 500kg on your rope hook?
It’s a simple question

Nobody does. You can ask exactly the same question about lashing something down in the back of a pickup or whether one exceeds the rating of a strap anywhere at any time. Pretty sure that a five ton strap can be ratcheted to exceed that load if one tried.
What the hell has this to do with the legality as stated in plain terms by IW trailers? Nothing. You are just clutching at straws.

Tackle IW trailers about it. How difficult is that? I did it in two minutes and got a reply that day. A reply that is unambiguous enough that it can be understood even by the least intelligent among us. If you disagree with it, it is your duty to challenge them and prove them wrong, not me. I'll go with whatever they say. Alternatively you could ask VOSA to actually take you to Court to get a precedence, unless there has already been one set. Ask IWT if there has.

 

[Cowabunga]

No, I have a holding number but my understanding is that I fall outwith the HASAW regs. That means that it would not be possible to prosecute me under them. A bit like you can't be prosecuted under the regs if you hit someone with a golf ball if that is your hobby. Of course, there is still a strong duty of care to the public etc, and there would be plenty of other legislation to worry about (tort) but the legal position isn't constrained by the regs.

I have no doubt that the information you received from Ifor is correct, and that there is no legal impediment to the use of rope hooks, in certain circumstances. I am also very clear that HSE would expect compliance with the CoP to be the desired basis of safety, but would consider any deviation from the various CoPs to be justifiable, after a suitable and sufficient risk assessment. I also note that Ifor claim that their rope hooks are competent to 500kg, but that this conflicts with the CoP which states that rope hooks are not normally rated. That gives me encouragement that the situation is justifiable, but perhaps not yet recorded/ justified. What I would encourage you to do is to record your decision process and justify that in advance of any challenge. If the only law that VOSA/ HSE/ Police can challenge you on is the HASAW regs, then they would struggle to get a successful prosecution against roadside check. Of course, if the unthinkable happens, they would probably find it easy to argue that your RA was unsuitable and insufficient, and you'd be in a bad place.

In the absence of any other legislation that we haven't yet uncovered, of course......

If you have a holding number you are a registered farmer and fall under all the regulations that entails. Health and safety at work act included. With a holding number you are a professional farmer, whatever you may think you are. Indeed if it came to talking with the inland revenue I am willing to bet that you would argue strongly that your are a working professional farmer. Almost all people in such circumstances would, for taxation and inheritance reasons.


If IW is correct then it is implicit that they do comply with regulations. They, being any interested party, would not be able to argue anything against an user that complied with the regulations.
So now it comes down to IW being correct until they are proven to be incorrect. What if they have already been proven to be correct? Ask them. They are the ones who build the trailers and they are the ones who claim that they and I am in compliance as explicitly stated on that answer.

 

[bobk]

Why haven't ifor williams car trailers got rope hooks .

 

[Paddington]

Am I the only person who still uses ropes on rope hooks to secure loads ? Everyone seems to use ratchet straps on sub 3500kg trailers.

 

[multi power]

You should be an politician. Expert in not answering a direct question.
How do you know you aren’t exerting more than 500kg on your rope hook?
It’s a simple question

That's easy, it only takes a small amount to bend or break the rope hooks

 

[multi power]

Am I the only person who still uses ropes on rope hooks to secure loads ? Everyone seems to use ratchet straps on sub 3500kg trailers.

Actually, no, my dad can't work ratchet straps

 

[Cowabunga]

That's easy, it only takes a small amount to bend or break the rope hooks

Really. In 40 years I have managed without bending or breaking a single hook.

 

[Cowabunga]

Why haven't ifor williams car trailers got rope hooks .

Why don't you ask them.

 

[bobk]

Why don't you ask them.

Can't be arsed .

 

[Cowabunga]

Can't be arsed .

Patently obvious. You can be arsed to argue the toss here though.