"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Woolless]

I know in Europe they have been using "heritage " seeds in Organic systems and found they out perform modern bred varieties, probably due to plant breeders being conventional & giving their newly bred plants lots of "assistance ".

Been reading 'Dirt to soil' by Gabe Brown. He was talking about the importance of plants 'communicating' with mycorrhizal fungi to get the nutrients they require. Some modern varieties are unable to do this and hence are completely reliant on artificial inputs.

 

[som farmer]

I know in Europe they have been using "heritage " seeds in Organic systems and found they out perform modern bred varieties, probably due to plant breeders being conventional & giving their newly bred plants lots of "assistance ".

it's the 14 lbs acre to 14kg acre, that's bugging me, what has happened to cause that 250% increase in requirement of seed, and more in some cases. There absolutely must be a fundamental reason, it's to great for there not to be.
We have been having trouble with leys, due to drought, fair enough. But looking back, we had no problem establishing leys, going back, it was plough, roll, disc, spring tines and harrow, and roll after drilling, one way, not cross, and excellent results, used to have huge first cuts, in mid may, good quality silage. Well i have been pondering on this for several years, 1st problem, as when started on my own, i would plough, contractor p/h and drill, contractors want quick in/out, was it done well enough ? So, kept plough, p/h in house, and contractor drilled, better but. So kept all in house, better again, but. So seed bed was correct. Min til, and tines, not plough, with our vaderstaad drill, seem/are better, jury still out, but looking ok. But the basic problem of ground coverage is still a problem, still seeing drill lines in 4/5 year old leys, isn't good, and we xdrill,
So, we are failing to establish good ground cover, failing to make the leys last, and failing to make enough fodder, despite being fussy over seed beds, drilling nearly 3 times the amount of seed, we used to, sensibly managing the grass, and soil indices are ok. What more can we do, not a lot. Back to there must be some fundamental reason, that means we are failing. Perhaps the 'non plough', and longer residuals is better, certainly this last back end the grass is looking really good, but still thinner, and that is after 3 dry summers. I don't know the answers, desperate to find them out. It is the amount of seed needed that really niggles, the next lot going in, is having a germination test.
As always, i look for positives, the grass is growing, the cows are out by day, calving is winding up to panic stations, and we had a welsh farmer looking at cows to buy, that couldn't believe the amount of grass we had, or the price we wanted for the cows, so didn't buy. We have been offered what we asked for, but he asked first, so had first dabs.

 

[Treg]

it's the 14 lbs acre to 14kg acre, that's bugging me, what has happened to cause that 250% increase in requirement of seed, and more in some cases. There absolutely must be a fundamental reason, it's to great for there not to be.
We have been having trouble with leys, due to drought, fair enough. But looking back, we had no problem establishing leys, going back, it was plough, roll, disc, spring tines and harrow, and roll after drilling, one way, not cross, and excellent results, used to have huge first cuts, in mid may, good quality silage. Well i have been pondering on this for several years, 1st problem, as when started on my own, i would plough, contractor p/h and drill, contractors want quick in/out, was it done well enough ? So, kept plough, p/h in house, and contractor drilled, better but. So kept all in house, better again, but. So seed bed was correct. Min til, and tines, not plough, with our vaderstaad drill, seem/are better, jury still out, but looking ok. But the basic problem of ground coverage is still a problem, still seeing drill lines in 4/5 year old leys, isn't good, and we xdrill,
So, we are failing to establish good ground cover, failing to make the leys last, and failing to make enough fodder, despite being fussy over seed beds, drilling nearly 3 times the amount of seed, we used to, sensibly managing the grass, and soil indices are ok. What more can we do, not a lot. Back to there must be some fundamental reason, that means we are failing. Perhaps the 'non plough', and longer residuals is better, certainly this last back end the grass is looking really good, but still thinner, and that is after 3 dry summers. I don't know the answers, desperate to find them out. It is the amount of seed needed that really niggles, the next lot going in, is having a germination test.
As always, i look for positives, the grass is growing, the cows are out by day, calving is winding up to panic stations, and we had a welsh farmer looking at cows to buy, that couldn't believe the amount of grass we had, or the price we wanted for the cows, so didn't buy. We have been offered what we asked for, but he asked first, so had first dabs.

Is grass supposed to be drilled? Certainly shouldn't drill a ley with clover in, should always be broad cast.
My point was modern grasses are bred by people who pander to their every need to get them to perform, they know full well in the real world a farmer may not pander to the seeds every need so recommend a higher seed rate.
Also types of grasses in your leys can effect ground cover, diploid gives more ground cover, tetraploids tend to be taller giving less ground cover.
We have had 3 tough summers mainly due to cold springs not allowing the grass to get going. This year (so far ) the grass is looking healthier but there's still time for winter to have a sting in it's tail.

 

[Crofter64]

Have you applied these principles?
I'm very interested in streamlining my business, as I think it is not very efficient.



Yeah, but 2 points of PH?

I read the lean farm and thought it was brilliant.I got a lot out of it.The book is mostly about how to reduce waste: wasted motion, production waste , and over production waste ( growing more than necessary and then having to spend money on storage,)wasting effort on low margin products , hoarding including inventory, uneven production and sales, unused talent. The book is also about seeing and getting value out of your work, land ,people and investments.

four key objectives to getting things running smoothly are:
SORTING: open the view, get rid of stuff, as few multi purpose tools as possible

SET IN ORDER: Tidy, visible tools and work areas, tools placed where it they are used rather than in some central location so less moving and forgetting of tools.

SHINE: Clean it up and rigorously keep it that way

SUSTAIN: a bit like plan - observe- replan it is :audit the system regularly to see how it is functioning.
Ben Hartman has a vegetable farm which is quite different from a livestock operation but I still learned an awful lot.Unrortunately, despite my best efforts The barn and barnyard always end up looking like a dump especially towards the end of winter.

 

[Blaithin]

Been reading 'Dirt to soil' by Gabe Brown. He was talking about the importance of plants 'communicating' with mycorrhizal fungi to get the nutrients they require. Some modern varieties are unable to do this and hence are completely reliant on artificial inputs.

Does he have anything to back that up?

Seems a stretch that modern varieties can’t speak plant lingo or that MF can’t speak to them. Typical plant breeding is fairly straight forward. GMO I suppose could technically remove a gene that allows communication but they’re pretty specific in the ones they play with...

Much more likely in my mind that plants have been bred to produce so much more they are no longer able to consistently source their requirements from the environment and rely on inputs.

 

[Woolless]

Does he have anything to back that up?

Seems a stretch that modern varieties can’t speak plant lingo or that MF can’t speak to them. Typical plant breeding is fairly straight forward. GMO I suppose could technically remove a gene that allows communication but they’re pretty specific in the ones they play with...

Much more likely in my mind that plants have been bred to produce so much more they are no longer able to consistently source their requirements from the environment and rely on inputs.

He went on at some length about how it all worked but I can't recall a specific reference.

 

[som farmer]

Is grass supposed to be drilled? Certainly shouldn't drill a ley with clover in, should always be broad cast.
My point was modern grasses are bred by people who pander to their every need to get them to perform, they know full well in the real world a farmer may not pander to the seeds every need so recommend a higher seed rate.
Also types of grasses in your leys can effect ground cover, diploid gives more ground cover, tetraploids tend to be taller giving less ground cover.
We have had 3 tough summers mainly due to cold springs not allowing the grass to get going. This year (so far ) the grass is looking healthier but there's still time for winter to have a sting in it's tail.

used to grow fair acreage of corn, so drilling in the mindset ! All in all, i prefer drilling, and seem to have better takes drilling than broadcasting. My old drill died, so contractors, seed box on harrows, still not happy, so we bought a vaderstaad, £7500, second hand, i hastily add, i can well see why they are so expensive new, it's a good accurate bit of kit, depth control is exact, and can d/d with it, pretty accurate down to 3or4 kg/acre, or less, of rape seed. Used for over seeding as well. The amount we have drilled, has pretty well covered the cost, with the added advantage of rolling as well, as we xdrill, this leaves a firm seed, then rolled again with ring roller. Drilling v broadcast, is a marmite thing, with corn, we always drilled, accuracy reduces the on going costs, tramlines, put an extra 150kg acre yield on corn, just by making everything 'exact', that's why i like drilling, right seed, right place, right amount.
Fully agree modern rye grass needs intensive care, to perform as the experts predict, i wonder why , as we have had 'problems', we are very careful with the selection, ground cover being very high up the list, we have even gone to having silage leys, tets with r clover, and very seldom grazed, and grazing leys, very seldom cut, dry summers have 'influenced a bit of change' on that policy ! So have tried hard, to get what was normal years ago, but not happening now, the dry summers have been chronic here, for the last 3, that hasn't helped. But it still doesn't answer why we have to use 2.5x the seed rate, to still not get a good take. Clover, seems to love being drilled here, better than spun on, and as that grows, we are slowly upping seed rate to try and get ground cover. Dry here, last summer, took up to 8 weeks for both forage rape, and weeds, to emerge in patches on the south facing banks, they did come though, surprisingly.

 

[Fenwick]

I read the lean farm and thought it was brilliant.I got a lot out of it.The book is mostly about how to reduce waste: wasted motion, production waste , and over production waste ( growing more than necessary and then having to spend money on storage,)wasting effort on low margin products , hoarding including inventory, uneven production and sales, unused talent. The book is also about seeing and getting value out of your work, land ,people and investments.

four key objectives to getting things running smoothly are:
SORTING: open the view, get rid of stuff, as few multi purpose tools as possible

SET IN ORDER: Tidy, visible tools and work areas, tools placed where it they are used rather than in some central location so less moving and forgetting of tools.

SHINE: Clean it up and rigorously keep it that way

SUSTAIN: a bit like plan - observe- replan it is :audit the system regularly to see how it is functioning.
Ben Hartman has a vegetable farm which is quite different from a livestock operation but I still learned an awful lot.Unrortunately, despite my best efforts The barn and barnyard always end up looking like a dump especially towards the end of winter.

Thanks for the input crofter!

That sounds how I like to think my farm is.

Actually it's a freakin mess and it certianly loses me a lot of time.

 

[Crofter64]

What Calving Season is Best for Your Bottom-Line?

These graziers focus on calving with nature to reduce inputs and make more money. But while May-June is great for them, it doesn’t fit for everyone. I’ve updated this article so we can …

onpasture.com

@Woolless

Hi Pete,I have a subscription to On Pasture but am blocked as malicious. Could you please paste the article in this thread for me and others who don’t have access? Tx

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Looking for some ideas.

I have an 8 acre field that was in a clover/plantain mix but I left it a year too long and that got played out. Used as a bale feeding paddock for the ewes this time, so decent cover of dung plus some bale residue. I am looking for a crop to DD in the spring. The main aim is to have maximum lamb feed from late July this year onwards. I am open minded as to whether this could be temporary/permanent/intermediate.

Current favourite is 'Protoplus' IRG/RC/Crimson clover mix. Does wonders for lambs apparently and the IRG would provide a good early bite in spring 2021. But an IRG monoculture is not ideal for the following summer. Any suggestions?

Swap some of the IRG for cocksfoot, maybe? It won't be much slower off the mark in the spring, but will outlast you if you care for it.
Go for maybe 5kg/ha cocksfoot and halve the rate of IRG?

Hi Pete,I have a subscription to On Pasture but am blocked as malicious. Could you please paste the article in this thread for me and others who don’t have access? Tx

Will do, wait a wee bit as I'm not in good coverage here?

 

[ShooTa]

i like the other one that i think comes from the same thing which im sure pete will like..

1. Task > Eliminate , and if you cant then....
2. Task > Automate , and if you cant then....
3. Task > Delegate , and if you cant then....
4. procrastinate on purpose and revisit step 1.

ie always question the context of what your doing... and if YOU are better off NOT doing it.

 

[Woolless]

Swap some of the IRG for cocksfoot, maybe? It won't be much slower off the mark in the spring, but will outlast you if you care for it.
Go for maybe 5kg/ha cocksfoot and halve the rate of IRG?

Will do, wait a wee bit as I'm not in good coverage here?

Hmm, I'll think about that. Not sure what I want to do longer term with it, possibly something a little herbal.

 

[bendigeidfran]

i like the other one that i think comes from the same thing which im sure pete will like..

1. Task > Eliminate , and if you cant then....
2. Task > Automate , and if you cant then....
3. Task > Delegate , and if you cant then....
4. procrastinate on purpose and revisit step 1.

ie always question the context of what your doing... and if YOU are better off NOT doing it.

Apply that to your ewe problem

 

[som farmer]

how about, if you want to do something bad enough, you will keep re-doing your costings, until they give you the right answer.

 

[Crofter64]

Totally. We haven't limed our pastures for over 20 years, and it's not a problem. Got a few areas at 6.5 and some very productive areas at 5.7. Export crops however is a different story!

Raising PH through biology ok, but 1000x in a season????? I can believe it. But I would like to understand!




Thats looking spot on! More photosynthesis, less respiration! Love it.




I would love to calve in April/May. But I get such a good price for my calves that calving year round is still a better financial choice in my context.

I think that understanding your situation and maximising its potential is key.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

i like the other one that i think comes from the same thing which im sure pete will like..

1. Task > Eliminate , and if you cant then....
2. Task > Automate , and if you cant then....
3. Task > Delegate , and if you cant then....
4. procrastinate on purpose and revisit step 1.

ie always question the context of what your doing... and if YOU are better off NOT doing it.

And for each one, if it needs done, "get it done"

don't just talk about it and think about it

 

[Crofter64]

it's the 14 lbs acre to 14kg acre, that's bugging me, what has happened to cause that 250% increase in requirement of seed, and more in some cases. There absolutely must be a fundamental reason, it's to great for there not to be.
We have been having trouble with leys, due to drought, fair enough. But looking back, we had no problem establishing leys, going back, it was plough, roll, disc, spring tines and harrow, and roll after drilling, one way, not cross, and excellent results, used to have huge first cuts, in mid may, good quality silage. Well i have been pondering on this for several years, 1st problem, as when started on my own, i would plough, contractor p/h and drill, contractors want quick in/out, was it done well enough ? So, kept plough, p/h in house, and contractor drilled, better but. So kept all in house, better again, but. So seed bed was correct. Min til, and tines, not plough, with our vaderstaad drill, seem/are better, jury still out, but looking ok. But the basic problem of ground coverage is still a problem, still seeing drill lines in 4/5 year old leys, isn't good, and we xdrill,
So, we are failing to establish good ground cover, failing to make the leys last, and failing to make enough fodder, despite being fussy over seed beds, drilling nearly 3 times the amount of seed, we used to, sensibly managing the grass, and soil indices are ok. What more can we do, not a lot. Back to there must be some fundamental reason, that means we are failing. Perhaps the 'non plough', and longer residuals is better, certainly this last back end the grass is looking really good, but still thinner, and that is after 3 dry summers. I don't know the answers, desperate to find them out. It is the amount of seed needed that really niggles, the next lot going in, is having a germination test.
As always, i look for positives, the grass is growing, the cows are out by day, calving is winding up to panic stations, and we had a welsh farmer looking at cows to buy, that couldn't believe the amount of grass we had, or the price we wanted for the cows, so didn't buy. We have been offered what we asked for, but he asked first, so had first dabs.

How about baling some late dry hay off of the permanent leys that were seeded years ago that you are happy with and feeding the cows a bit of supplement now and then in the newer paddocks. I have only seeded once on this farm 25 years ago. I used to only hay everything.Then I cut early and grazed the re growth. Now I just graze. By changing the grazing pattern and slowing it down I have seen species that I thought had completely disappeared return.( none of this was done on purpose, it just turned out that way)

 

[som farmer]

How about baling some late dry hay off of the permanent leys that were seeded years ago that you are happy with and feeding the cows a bit of supplement now and then in the newer paddocks. I have only seeded once on this farm 25 years ago. I used to only hay everything.Then I cut early and grazed the re growth. Now I just graze. By changing the grazing pattern and slowing it down I have seen species that I thought had completely disappeared return.( none of this was done on purpose, it just turned out that way)

er, we don't have much old or pp left, the bits we have been experimenting on, are not cuttable. We were to have a 16 acre old grass field, we were improving, on a 'long basis', it's on the mkt, told yesterday, uh, the other bit, had to be sacrificed for more run back for cattle on kale, been so wet. So back to the start again, well not quite, we have taken another block for this year, that's been well farmed as well, so we will continue there ! On the other hand, we would love to have old pasture !

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Today I learned: turning a pile of blue chip into a level, 2.9m circle on a slight slope with a rake is not really that easy, but quite satisfying when done.

Water system header tank will go here, I just need to wash it out because the worms climbed out of the compost heap and it smells pretty rank inside.

Road-chip was free, all I had to do was shovel it onto the trailer and take it away

Someone (on here) told me my pipe would flow plenty enough water to suit our cattle numbers so I'm just going to pinch one of the 9000 litre (2000 gallon) tanks from behind the polytunnel, now that we hardly use it I don't think it makes sense to buy a new tank for the job at hand.
As they're quite short and squat, it should mean more flow in - as you can see it's just a little lower than the reservoir tanks behind and gravity generally works better downhill

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Road-chip was free, all I had to do was shovel it onto the trailer and take it away

Another unfair advantage...

Road chippings typically sell for £200 per 20 ton load fresh from the road here. Can be twice that from a stock holder.