Is anyone actually continually no-tilling?

[marco]

Just reading comments here, seeing the likes of @Clive establishing covers off his carrier and seeing an artical during the week that @phil was doing similar. Does @Simon Chiles do this as well?

Just thinking as my calcium soils seem to be a bit tight after 5 years of no movement. I'm going to run a subsoiler trough it after the dung spreaders made a mess. Is it a case that the small soil partials in the first few years get washed down and form a shallow pan?

And calcium soils tend to run together without mag to hold them open.

I'm going to subsoil and start again.

whats the opinions

 

[SilliamWhale]

0ne field 10 years no till. 12 or 13 no plough.

The rest at stages between 2-9 years. Probably averaging 6 years. I'd rather have no cover and no till than cover and tillage but that's because I know my soil can do it now.

Subsoil some headlands sometimes, but you know how obsessed I am about zero soil movement/ invisible seeding which personally I value very highly.

Never say never though and would hesitate to bring a GLS or my old chisel grubber in to subsoil or mix things up if I felt it would do a good job in short and long term.

 

[Badshot]

Are your crops suffering? Maybe you ought to consider planting rape with a subsoiler or some sort of deeper tine? Certainly hope I can continue without but if need be I will either subsoil or whatever is necessary. I'm not a slave to any system.

 

[jack6480]

Ploughing is recreational

 

[Clive]

Only reason I'm using a carrier to establish covers now is that it's fast, cheap, mineralises a bit of N and can be done by unskilled labour (only my drill driver drives my drill and he's also combine driver )

In the perfect world I would establish them with my 750a

I'm 20 years now without plough other than when potatoes have been grown over that time

Only 3 years real zero-till and plus some land shallow till (2") to level or establish covers etc yet and things are getting better not worse

 

[Andy Howard]

Majority of land has had no Subsoiling or ploughing for over twelve years. 5 years min till, 5 years claydon and some land 4th year no till. I subsoil if needed but rarely is. Most of our soils cut like butter with a spade. Like everyone we have problem fields. Really wouldn't go back to tillage with iron.

 

[marco]

I'm considering a grassland subsoiler so it's left back level with no ridges or big lifting.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I'm considering a grassland subsoiler so it's left back level with no ridges or big lifting.

Any pictures of the fields?

 

[Andy Howard]

I think one of the things that helps us is growing winter beans. They put down deep tap roots. They leave structure in good nick especially on heavy land

 

[d williams]

0ne field 10 years no till. 12 or 13 no plough.

The rest at stages between 2-9 years. Probably averaging 6 years. I'd rather have no cover and no till than cover and tillage but that's because I know my soil can do it now.

Subsoil some headlands sometimes, but you know how obsessed I am about zero soil movement/ invisible seeding which personally I value very highly.

Never say never though and would hesitate to bring a GLS or my old chisel grubber in to subsoil or mix things up if I felt it would do a good job in short and long term.

We have some badly laid spring barley/ oats which have started to green hope to clean up best we can but not confident of much success how best to deal with the remains if d/d we have a disc drill but thinking will have to plough to get rid

 

[York]

I'm considering a grassland subsoiler so it's left back level with no ridges or big lifting.

never use subsolers with the "V" wings.
Better to use a system like the http://www.eversagro.com/tillage-machines/subsoilers/grasslandsubsoiler/#/24
Old paraplows with a cutting disc are a very cost effective option, not always accessible.
there might even be some British build Paraplows around. ;-)
York-Th.

 

[marco]

never use subsolers with the "V" wings.
Better to use a system like the http://www.eversagro.com/tillage-machines/subsoilers/grasslandsubsoiler/#/24
Old paraplows with a cutting disc are a very cost effective option, not always accessible.
there might even be some British build Paraplows around. ;-)
York-Th.

http://www.erthengineering.co.uk/products/agriculture/grass_subsoiler.php

this is what i would be using. leaving everthing where it should be.

 

[DrWazzock]

I'm saving up for an Erth grassland machine and increasing the beef herd to use and recycle all our straw. Only way DD can work here. Probably financial suicide but feels right.

Our heavy land does seem to gradually over compact if not loosened occasionally. The sand isn't a problem.

The heavy land seems to "pond" in wet years.

I really would like continual zero till to work and I think it might eventually with a few tweaks.

 

[Simon Chiles]

Just reading comments here, seeing the likes of @Clive establishing covers off his carrier and seeing an artical during the week that @phil was doing similar. Does @Simon Chiles do this as well?

Just thinking as my calcium soils seem to be a bit tight after 5 years of no movement. I'm going to run a subsoiler trough it after the dung spreaders made a mess. Is it a case that the small soil partials in the first few years get washed down and form a shallow pan?

And calcium soils tend to run together without mag to hold them open.

I'm going to subsoil and start again.

whats the opinions

Sorry, I saw this post the other day but have been too busy to reply properly. Just to put things into context I contract farm for 8 ( 9 if you count my own) different landowners with contract drilling as well so everything is not totally in my control. We do use compact discs, a stubble cultivator, subsoiler and a plough but everything is planted with the 750. In the last 15 years of 750 ownership ( over 30,000 acres of drilling) about 80% has been dd and sub 200 acres have been ploughed. In the last five years I have used the subsoiler for less than 50 acres. I have reached the point where I think the plough is not needed ( I'm only keeping it because it was the first new tool I bought when I started contracting and with an acre under cover I'm not short of space) . The main tool we use for cultivating are the compact discs but we only use them if we can't take the previous crop volunteers out of the new one eg if barley or oats followed wheat. More careful planning on crop rotations would reduce their need and it would be possible not to need them. The subsoiler is only ever used in very dry conditions to rectify damage done by machines used in too wet conditions eg hedge cutting or when Network Rail needed access over my land to repair a culvert. The stubble cultivator is used too dry land out where waiting isn't an option eg last Dec I wanted to use up some wheat seed that was a couple of years old. I have whole farms that have been mainly dd'ed and not cultivated to more than a couple of inches for 15 years. I view cultivating as an admission of poor planing on my behalf. I also know farmers that want to dd ( because it's cheap ) that quite frankly are wasting their time because of poor soil management in the past.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I view cultivating as an admission of poor planing on my behalf. I also know farmers that want to dd ( because it's cheap ) that quite frankly are wasting their time because of poor soil management in the past.

That's how I see it too. Same with subsoiling generally. Will keep my plough and few bits of cultivating gear (chisel, multi-cultivator, rotorvator) because you never know and they are not worth a fortune but rarely need them - maybe tidying up around muck heaps and little patches etc.

 

[SilliamWhale]

http://www.erthengineering.co.uk/products/agriculture/grass_subsoiler.php

this is what i would be using. leaving everthing where it should be.

I'm sceptical that it will make as much difference as you think it might (and that goes for any subsoiler).

If you have ruts and mess then fair enough but having done bits on and off for a while with a subsoiler I don't think it yields differently, it just tidies up areas that are badly uneven and tractor lanes in fields.

 

[Andy Howard]

Interesting article in the No till farmer about a long term no tiller (40 years). He did some cover crop trials. In control plot he had a pan at 9 inches. After cover crops he got penetrometer 25 inches. Also his yields jumped in crop after covers. Best plot was profit increase of $258 from covers. It shows me that just stopping tillage is not enough. You need different roots structures whether from cash or cover crops

 

[Clive]

I think I'm always going to need a subsoiler, muck, bio solids, ad waste and compost heaps, field gateways etc where extreme traffic pushes all air from soil and destroys structure unavoidably. We have a old shakerator at the moment but would like to swap that for a sumo lds or Mzuri rehab type lower disturbance machine at some point. Hard to justify that though when use is so limited on so few acres

My carrier would be obsolete within the next 5 years I think however it is very good way to establish cover crops fast so will most likely stick around, it's very cheap to use and only shallow. It's been a very useful tool as we have changed from our old system

 

[SilliamWhale]

Interesting article in the No till farmer about a long term no tiller (40 years). He did some cover crop trials. In control plot he had a pan at 9 inches. After cover crops he got penetrometer 25 inches. Also his yields jumped in crop after covers. Best plot was profit increase of $258 from covers. It shows me that just stopping tillage is not enough. You need different roots structures whether from cash or cover crops

I agree totally but there is a slightly different context in the USA (presumably it was american?).

They have a preponderence of spring crops (maize and soybeans) and so whereas they may be growing 75% spring and 25% winter our ratio could be the opposite and so we will have more living root in the winter than them so our cover crop could be just 1 in 4 unless your doing some between rape and wheat.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I think I'm always going to need a subsoiler, muck, bio solids, ad waste and compost heaps, field gateways etc where extreme traffic pushes all air from soil and destroys structure unavoidably. We have a old shakerator at the moment but would like to swap that for a sumo lds or Mzuri rehab type lower disturbance machine at some point. Hard to justify that though when use is so limited on so few acres

My carrier would be obsolete within the next 5 years I think however it is very good way to establish cover crops fast so will most likely stick around, it's very cheap to use and only shallow. It's been a very useful tool as we have changed from our old system

Second hand flatlift?