Is anyone actually continually no-tilling?

[Clive]

Second hand flatlift?

Maybe an option, you can get them with discs can't you ? Are they as low surface disturbance as sumo / Mzuri though ?

Shakerator is a hang over from the past, I think the legs are awful things and it disturbs far too much soil / doesn't lift anything like enough, basically it's just not a subsoiler more glorified drag

 

[Andy Howard]

I agree totally but there is a slightly different context in the USA (presumably it was american?).

They have a preponderence of spring crops (maize and soybeans) and so whereas they may be growing 75% spring and 25% winter our ratio could be the opposite and so we will have more living root in the winter than them so our cover crop could be just 1 in 4 unless your doing some between rape and wheat.

Yes, this is why I said cash or covers. I think if you tried to no till wheat /wheat /rape your Soil would be poorly structured. We also have wetter, warmer winters which can damage soils so I think diversity of roots is even more vital here than the USA

 

[BSH]

I have to say I quite like my grassland shakerator. Used in the right conditions it works well without too much surface disturbance. I have the legs set at 60 cm apart which I run at 10-12'' depp that seems about right.

 

[warksfarmer]

Maybe an option, you can get them with discs can't you ? Are they as low surface disturbance as sumo / Mzuri though ?

Shakerator is a hang over from the past, I think the legs are awful things and it disturbs far too much soil / doesn't lift anything like enough, basically it's just not a subsoiler more glorified drag

Convert your shakerator into the 'grassland version'

 

[warksfarmer]

Just reading comments here, seeing the likes of @Clive establishing covers off his carrier and seeing an artical during the week that @phil was doing similar. Does @Simon Chiles do this as well?

Just thinking as my calcium soils seem to be a bit tight after 5 years of no movement. I'm going to run a subsoiler trough it after the dung spreaders made a mess. Is it a case that the small soil partials in the first few years get washed down and form a shallow pan?

And calcium soils tend to run together without mag to hold them open.

I'm going to subsoil and start again.

whats the opinions

Think what your seeing is very common along with weed infestations as well.

 

[Clive]

Convert your shakerator into the 'grassland version'



View attachment 66722

View attachment 66723

I think shakerator legs are rubbish as subsoilers though, good drag yes but without wings they are not sub-soiling and more molling in anything less than perfect conditions

that said its a cheap solution for now maybe and better than what we are doing right now

 

[B&B Pig Man]

I think shakerator legs are rubbish as subsoilers though, good drag yes but without wings they are not sub-soiling and more molling in anything less than perfect conditions

that said its a cheap solution for now maybe and better than what we are doing right now

Spaldings Flatlift has to be about the best true sub soiler available. Most others are just deep cultivators.

 

[JD6920s]

I think shakerator legs are rubbish as subsoilers though, good drag yes but without wings they are not sub-soiling and more molling in anything less than perfect conditions

that said its a cheap solution for now maybe and better than what we are doing right now

You can get a large winged point for them, I think they call it a Delta Point.

 

[Clive]

You can get a large winged point for them, I think they call it a Delta Point.

Looking at mConnel website it look like a different leg on the grassland ? It has no replaceable shin ?

Also only shows what I would call a normal point, so maybe what we already use is the delta point ?

Adding discs certainly seems to reduce the surface disturbance very well though

 

[clbarclay]

Top point is the standard, lower one is the delta.

It looks like they just don't fit the shin to grassland versions and a normal leg. I have not bought a leg for a while so no idea what it would do for the running cost without shins.

 

[Clive]

View attachment 66837
Top point is the standard, lower one is the delta.

It looks like they just don't fit the shin to grassland versions and a normal leg. I have not bought a leg for a while so no idea what it would do for the running cost without shins.

McConnell have been very helpfully emailed a .pdf with various wings and disc options etc detailed

seems the grassland is run without shin, I guess this is to reduce disturbance, legs are not really very expensive so maybe not so daft

interestingly the grassland seems to have a device to hold point on rather than just knock on, it doesnt use the delta point though as standard which is much wider than the points we have been using so would be better lift

disc units look good but no idea on cost

shows a 3m grassland as a 4 leg machine - I would rather have 0,5m spacing though and im not sure that's posible to get 6 legs and discs in a 3m frame ?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Its quite similar to an erth @Clive - erth maybe had longer legs horizontally

 

[shakerator]

Got some land will be year 4 no till.

Great levels of beetle and worm activity. Takes weight ever so well.
Great yields of beans.
Ok cereal yields. Black grass control easier

BUT

Ponding has increased in some areas
And I don't think as much of applied N goes into the crop.

Does it "make" OM to pay me back later? Not convinced....

But I don't understand nitrogen very well. Sometimes it seems like a tillage pass can release 100kg/N ....instead of the 30kg often mentioned. It is commonly acknowledged that early days of continuous notill require more N. I would agree with this, but have not seen any evidence of the payback curves.

Think the best way to increase OM is not to be obsessed with 100% weed control, some weeds are great soil conditioners and will not cause problems in next crop with decent rotation


Also with regards selective tillage I don't think it makes much difference what implement you use.....6 weeks later you never see a difference! I love the notion so entires explained that sub soiling "let's the water drain through the profile".....HOW??? Surely just drying surface area which can rewet.

I do work to a formula though eg if light tillage pass will save roundup and pellets, and pop up fert, tillage may be more benign and cost effective.

Also I think the biggest impediment to no till is our culture, SFP, and our markets. I think no till would thrive if the food system returned to local produce serving local markets

 

[BSH]

Clive, The grassland shakerator is normally run without leg shins, but given the cost of legs the wear is acceptable. You can use the shins but get greater disturbance. I found the delta points were too much of a good thing and reverted to the standard points. The 3 m machine can be fitted with 4 legs to get a narrower spacing. I have the 2.5 m machine and have 4 legs running at 60cm spacing.

 

[SilliamWhale]

0ne field 10 years no till. 12 or 13 no plough.

The rest at stages between 2-9 years. Probably averaging 6 years. I'd rather have no cover and no till than cover and tillage but that's because I know my soil can do it now.

Subsoil some headlands sometimes, but you know how obsessed I am about zero soil movement/ invisible seeding which personally I value very highly.

Never say never though and would hesitate to bring a GLS or my old chisel grubber in to subsoil or mix things up if I felt it would do a good job in short and long term.

The 10 year no till field yielded about 2t/acre of spring beans this arfo. Are beans generally heavier than wheat? No marks and would be a spotless crop if not for rbwh and groundsel. Will leave a week for plants to get above a bit of the chopped bean and then spray off (may try some kyleo) and drill cleaned but untreated wheat seed anytime after 20th sept.

Just started the 70 year no till field (beans into pasture) and we'll probably only get about 1.2-1.4t out of it but its not a bad result really. Was a bit low on nutrient status. Should be a decent entry for wheat now - hopefully no wireworm!

I'm inspired enough to try it on another long term pasture next spring but will get some fibrophos and lime on it soon first.

 

[Baling Hay]

The 10 year no till field yielded about 2t/acre of spring beans this arfo. Are beans generally heavier than wheat? No marks and would be a spotless crop if not for rbwh and groundsel. Will leave a week for plants to get above a bit of the chopped bean and then spray off (may try some kyleo) and drill cleaned but untreated wheat seed anytime after 20th sept.

Just started the 70 year no till field (beans into pasture) and we'll probably only get about 1.2-1.4t out of it but its not a bad result really. Was a bit low on nutrient status. Should be a decent entry for wheat now - hopefully no wireworm!

I'm inspired enough to try it on another long term pasture next spring but will get some fibrophos and lime on it soon first.

Could you get some photos of the beans into pasture for us??

 

[SilliamWhale]

Could you get some photos of the beans into pasture for us??

Ok. Tomorrow will do. These aren't quite as clean, quite a green bottom and look short but I think based on this one year its a viable thing to do. I would say they maybe missed an inch or two of rain in what has been a dry year for us.

 

[rob1]

The 10 year no till field yielded about 2t/acre of spring beans this arfo. Are beans generally heavier than wheat? No marks and would be a spotless crop if not for rbwh and groundsel. Will leave a week for plants to get above a bit of the chopped bean and then spray off (may try some kyleo) and drill cleaned but untreated wheat seed anytime after 20th sept.

Just started the 70 year no till field (beans into pasture) and we'll probably only get about 1.2-1.4t out of it but its not a bad result really. Was a bit low on nutrient status. Should be a decent entry for wheat now - hopefully no wireworm!

I'm inspired enough to try it on another long term pasture next spring but will get some fibrophos and lime on it soon first.

Do you think one year is enough to lessen wireworm, when i ploughed up 40 yr grass it was worse in the second and tbird years that suffered worse

 

[SilliamWhale]

Do you think one year is enough to lessen wireworm, when i ploughed up 40 yr grass it was worse in the second and third years that suffered worse

Not sure. Its going to be a learning curve. I think its different to ploughed up pasture because i'm already giving the wireworm something to eat with some fresh bean roots so maybe it won't be so bad.

I've got some FSS treated with redigo deter (was told there was another chemical that was quite good but they didn't have it in stock - began with A) and will spray with some chlorpyrifos again.

 

[Simon Chiles]

Not sure. Its going to be a learning curve. I think its different to ploughed up pasture because i'm already giving the wireworm something to eat with some fresh bean roots so maybe it won't be so bad.

I've got some FSS treated with redigo deter (was told there was another chemical that was quite good but they didn't have it in stock - began with A) and will spray with some chlorpyrifos again.

Austral, used to be called Evict, and it would have been the one I would use in this situation.