Is it time to acknowledge the difference.....?

[traineefarmer]

Simple questionnaire:

Can you afford and justify buying new equipment? Yes = Agribusiness.

Can you afford and justify buying rusty knackered secondhand shite? No = Family farm.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Thinks have certainly changed
In 1960 dad bought a brand new Fordson Dexa and Forage Harvester farming 30 acres ,but we always felt big never small

 

[tractorsandcows]

What if you cant even justify old rusty knackered machine

 

[Derrick Hughes]

What if you cant even justify old rusty knackered machine

Contractors do most of my work , not much more than employing staff , and makes me feel big when they turn up with new megamonsters

 

[Nick Adams]

Great idea. I've opted out of many requirements where possible. No fert or pesticides, stay within 40 miles for livestock haulage etc. etc. Minimize ANY machinery use, contractors where justified and the rest with 80's and 90's kit.

 

[Spud]

How about agribusinesses allowed to use tractors that can exceed 40K and remove the 18.29T trailer weight limit (just keeping the 31T gross train weight) but subject to drivers hours limits and monitoring plus higher driver certification (sort of HGV Lite) alongside annual MOTs.

Micro- businesses limited to current tractor rules including 40k limit and 18.29T max trailer.

Might help with all the trailer overturns....

If d**kh**d drivers slowed down and paid attention to road conditions there'd be less overturns. Wanna go fast? Get a wagon.

20t trailer weight and 30t train weight, and 40kph ought to be enough for anybody.

 

[GeorgeK]

Perhaps first the government and these schemes and regulatory bodies need to decide or at least be honest about whether or not they actually want food to be grown in this country

 

[Goweresque]

Micro- businesses limited to current tractor rules including 40k limit and 18.29T max trailer.

MF 135s and Weekes 3 tonne trailers surely?

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Yeah. We get the rules changed.
We can't differentiate, because there is nothing wrong my side of the gate or yours, and to try and draw a line would suggest otherwise.

Sorry but I don't think that it is relevant.

I don't believe one is better or worse than the other, just that the dynamics are completely different. A lot of policies would be better if adapted to those differences.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

How about agribusinesses allowed to use tractors that can exceed 40K and remove the 18.29T trailer weight limit (just keeping the 31T gross train weight) but subject to drivers hours limits and monitoring plus higher driver certification (sort of HGV Lite) alongside annual MOTs.

Micro- businesses limited to current tractor rules including 40k limit and 18.29T max trailer.

Might help with all the trailer overturns....

This is the sort of thing I had in mind but provide free/ cheap training for drivers and mechanics. It would be better for the business, employment and would rule out the need for LOLER style nonsense.

It is inevitable that there will be a clamp down at some point and without a distinction, micro-business won't be able to afford to meet rules that need not really apply to them.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Although a good way of thinking about it my question would be what would we be relieved of as there is enough paperwork as it is and this distinction could increase that amount. Nice to introduce a distinction but getting rid of or simplifying the existing rules and regs might be more useful.

I would certainly hope that would be the case. All rules and regs should be reviewed and removed or applied appropriately.

 

[milkloss]

Perhaps first the government and these schemes and regulatory bodies need to decide or at least be honest about whether or not they actually want food to be grown in this country

And be honest about their decision with us.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Agri business on a small scale here , confused? So am I!

That is why I think it should be up to you to choose the option that best suits you and your business. Neither option could be qualified by size, turnover or sector.

 

[Spud]

So when does the digestate magically become an agricultural product instead of a industrial one?

Local incident of digestate being spread on land used for a digester getting into the river was agricultural pollution not industrial pollution.

@Jackov Altraids
Like Pollard was out on farm last week promising to help keep small family farms.
These small family farms need to generate enough income to provide for 2 if not 3 families to live off of.

They can not be small to do that.
So would be 300 cow units. Is that a small business?

It doesn’t answer your question but muddies the water.

In much the same way as brewers grains become cattle feed

Spreading digestate is agricultural, and as such the farmer is responsible spreading it responsibly

 

[Jackov Altraids]

So when does the digestate magically become an agricultural product instead of a industrial one?

Local incident of digestate being spread on land used for a digester getting into the river was agricultural pollution not industrial pollution.

@Jackov Altraids
Like Pollard was out on farm last week promising to help keep small family farms.
These small family farms need to generate enough income to provide for 2 if not 3 families to live off of.

They can not be small to do that.
So would be 300 cow units. Is that a small business?

It doesn’t answer your question but muddies the water.

My choice of terms may be misleading as I think the size of the unit isn't hugely relevant.
I used micro business otherwise it might be thought I was explicitly meaning 'family farms'.

The biggest potential difference I see is that 'micro-business' should be guaranteed to be exempt from inheritance tax as that would finish many family farms. I'm not suggesting that agri-business should be subject to inheritance tax but it seems increasingly likely that it could happen and exemptions would be critical.

 

[ajd132]

But there’s plenty of examples of small family farms turning into much bigger ones through things like contract farming.

 

[delilah]

A lot of policies would be better if adapted to those differences.

What I said. We are in agreement; if the rules/ policies pertinent to a specific issue are biased against the smaller scale business, then we don't say that smaller scale businesses are a separate sector, we get the rules/ policies changed.

 

[ajd132]

My choice of terms may be misleading as I think the size of the unit isn't hugely relevant.
I used micro business otherwise it might be thought I was explicitly meaning 'family farms'.

The biggest potential difference I see is that 'micro-business' should be guaranteed to be exempt from inheritance tax as that would finish many family farms. I'm not suggesting that agri-business should be subject to inheritance tax but it seems increasingly likely that it could happen and exemptions would be critical.

How does this work. Most ‘big’ farmers are farming lots of small family farms for lots of people.
Does the 13000 acre estate down the road owned by one family class as a family farm or agribusiness?
This whole thread just reeks of jealousy.

 

[Goweresque]

How does this work. Most ‘big’ farmers are farming lots of small family farms for lots of people.
Does the 13000 acre estate down the road owned by one family class as a family farm or agribusiness?
This whole thread just reeks of jealousy.

I think what @Jackov Altraids was getting at was that it would be up to the individual business to decide whether they were Category A or Category B for regulatory purposes. So you could farm 10000 acres but decide to run under the 'family' set of rules, and you could farm 200 and decide the 'agri-business' set of rules suited your business better. It would be a personal choice, not something imposed on you. The trick to getting it right (from a legislators point of view) would be to give large businesses an incentive to go for the higher regulation option, while making the lower regulation option less advantageous in other ways, so mainly the smaller ones would take that option.

I think the problem arises with enforcement. When a tractor and trailer are driving down the road, how does PC Plod know what set of rules applies to it? 'Family' rules or 'Agri-business' rules?

 

[ajd132]

I think what @Jackov Altraids was getting at was that it would be up to the individual business to decide whether they were Category A or Category B for regulatory purposes. So you could farm 10000 acres but decide to run under the 'family' set of rules, and you could farm 200 and decide the 'agri-business' set of rules suited your business better. It would be a personal choice, not something imposed on you. The trick to getting it right (from a legislators point of view) would be to give large businesses an incentive to go for the higher regulation option, while making the lower regulation option less advantageous in other ways, so mainly the smaller ones would take that option.

I think the problem arises with enforcement. When a tractor and trailer are driving down the road, how does PC Plod know what set of rules applies to it? 'Family' rules or 'Agri-business' rules?

Sounds abit mental to me.