Is reseeding a good thing if you are thinking holisticly

[Farmersdaughter]

We have a lot of permanent pasture, which has not ever been reseeded in my memory (40 years). I keep hearing that reseeds can give 20:1 return on investment. However our permanent pasture seem to do OK with quite low inputs. The pHs are high (7.2-7.8), the p, K and mg indices are 3, 4 ( or 5), they are mostly heavy clay and a lot can flood. To reseed I am going to need to spray plough and cultivate, which is not going to do soil biology much good. Is it worth reseeding?

 

[The_Swede]

Which grasses are making up the sward as it stands?

 

[Great In Grass]

The thing is you may not have anything to compare your current PP with and have not noticed the gradual decline in yield and the ingress of grass weeds.

There is no need for a full re-seed over seeding with a specialist grass mixture will help restore long term productivity, ask a local contractor what type of machine they have.

A good mix will:
--Increases the proportion of productive ryegrass in the sward.
--Improves the quality of the grass for better animal performance
--Repairs the damage caused by poaching of grazing swards
--Specifically designed to work best with specialist overseeding techniques
--Includes varieties which are aggressive enough to establish in an existing sward, yet easy to manage.

If you would like details of a mix and how to over seed start a conversation and I'll help best I can.

 

[Old McDonald]

Are you able to tell us the level of prductivity you are presently obtaining from these fields? Not necessarily liveweight gains, etc., but a rough idea of grazing days is a good starting point.

 

[davieh3350]

What about some deep rooting plants to get deeper into the soil, open it up and let it drain and breathe?

Some herbal mix, brunett, yarrow, sheeps parsley and ribgrass too for some variety.

I can't see the point of spraying off grass if it's grass you want to grow.
As for ploughing, unless you're going to be cutting it, it doesn't really matter if it's smooth, and why turn all the organic matter under.

There's a few good books to read, both recommended on here, Frank Newman Turner, fertility farming is good, so is greener pastures on your side of the fence by Bill Murphy. ( recommended by @le bon paysan ) Quite a lot of information about rotational grazing and managing your grass to get the best from it.

 

[Farmersdaughter]

Are you able to tell us the level of prductivity you are presently obtaining from these fields? Not necessarily liveweight gains, etc., but a rough idea of grazing days is a good starting point.

Will need to sit down and work that out. We have quite a bit of grass. Run 160 dairy cows on land close to farm. Then have about 200 head of young stock on different parcels. Some is in HLS and we take a hay cut off them run young stock on, this year they end up with about 50 running 150 acres after hay, so quite low density. But can not do anything to hls ground so not really worth talking about.
I will look at some figures, was using a plate meter on dairy grazing ground at the end of summer so have some growth rates.

 

[Old McDonald]

Do not go to a lot of trouble. I was asking basically so that others with more local knowledge would have an idea whether reseeding could give much more grazing or not. Your plate meter information might well be enough.

If the extra that might be achieved does not come at an economic cost, then it is not worthwhile reseeding. On the other hand, if production could be doubled, then it could be, but the present pasture will withstand flooding, and if reseeds are flooded soon after seeding then you could end up with a big problem. Maximising output is not always the best way forward.

 

[damaged]

If you are not intending to change your inputs then keep the naturally selected grasses. There is a good reason why these types survive on clay. Especially high ph clay.
However if you intend to increase productivity with bagged nitrogen, then reseed with modern, hungry tetraploid ryegrass.
No need to plough with Italian vigorous seeds.

 

[Chasingmytail]

cant he flooding be alleviated a little by putting in ponds and trees? If you look into permaculture design you can help slow the flooding down but that depends on where you are located.

 

[Farmersdaughter]

Can see how ponds and trees can help in some areas, but our flood is from the river Severn and when we have a big flood it covers hundred of acres and can be over the hedges in places. Good ditches can help drain it quicker when the river goes down, but are not going to stop it when there is a big flood.

 

[martian]

We have a lot of permanent pasture, which has not ever been reseeded in my memory (40 years). I keep hearing that reseeds can give 20:1 return on investment. However our permanent pasture seem to do OK with quite low inputs. The pHs are high (7.2-7.8), the p, K and mg indices are 3, 4 ( or 5), they are mostly heavy clay and a lot can flood. To reseed I am going to need to spray plough and cultivate, which is not going to do soil biology much good. Is it worth reseeding?

All my instincts answer no to your question. But, then that might just be laziness.

We ploughed up an old piece of pasture once and got an arable crop off it for a year or two, then returned it to pasture with a reseed of PRG and clovers. It did outyield our permanent pastures for a while, but it's now gone sad and 'wants' another reseed. It also walks hard compared to the undisturbed meadows.

We've been experimenting with mob-grazing here for the last 3 or 4 years and you can see how the botanical composition of the meadows changes year on year. We've got a couple of meadows where this change isn't necessarily for the better as the creeping bents seem to be thriving, but over the rest we're finding productivity is constantly increasing and rooting is deeper (with the grasses being allowed to grow taller and more surface 'trash' being left to feed the worms and protect the dung beetles etc). If you think about it, this isn't remotely surprising, how you manage a multi-species sward will inevitably affect which species thrive and which decline. The wierd thing is how new species seem to appear from nowhere. In a flood meadow you'll be getting stuff washed down from upstream, what joy! You've got a potentially highly productive and very cheap system there, don't go spending money on it, just manage it and it'll pay you back handsomely

 

[The_Swede]

I'd second the above re how the ground walks and rooting (no mob grazing here though), however we seem to grow excellent creeping bent in places too....

 

[Farmersdaughter]

Can see how ponds and trees can help in some areas, but our flood is from the river Severn and when we have a big flood it covers hundred of acres and can be over the hedges in places. Good ditches can help drain it quicker when the river goes down, but are not going to stop it when there is a big flood.

picture of some of fields flooded in 2013.

 

[Farmersdaughter]

All my instincts answer no to your question. But, then that might just be laziness.

We ploughed up an old piece of pasture once and got an arable crop off it for a year or two, then returned it to pasture with a reseed of PRG and clovers. It did outyield our permanent pastures for a while, but it's now gone sad and 'wants' another reseed. It also walks hard compared to the undisturbed meadows.

We've been experimenting with mob-grazing here for the last 3 or 4 years and you can see how the botanical composition of the meadows changes year on year. We've got a couple of meadows where this change isn't necessarily for the better as the creeping bents seem to be thriving, but over the rest we're finding productivity is constantly increasing and rooting is deeper (with the grasses being allowed to grow taller and more surface 'trash' being left to feed the worms and protect the dung beetles etc). If you think about it, this isn't remotely surprising, how you manage a multi-species sward will inevitably affect which species thrive and which decline. The wierd thing is how new species seem to appear from nowhere. In a flood meadow you'll be getting stuff washed down from upstream, what joy! You've got a potentially highly productive and very cheap system there, don't go spending money on it, just manage it and it'll pay you back handsomely

I have been thinking about mob grazing some areas with young stock. I had been thinking that it was more use in grass leys after arable to increase om, than on permenant. Do you think it has increased productivity on your pasture? Do you think it is possible to take a hay crop in July ( hls rules) then mob graze after?

 

[mikep]

Saw some papers years ago and the conclusion was that output varied with N input amazingly......But.
The first 100 units killed the clover, the next fifty paid for the reseed so unless your pp is terminally bad and you want to spend all summer chucking bag muck on leave well alone.
PS you probably got £50 acre of someone elses fertiliser for free in the floods.

 

[martian]

I have been thinking about mob grazing some areas with young stock. I had been thinking that it was more use in grass leys after arable to increase om, than on permenant. Do you think it has increased productivity on your pasture? Do you think it is possible to take a hay crop in July ( hls rules) then mob graze after?

It definitely increases production on permanent pasture. It's all about exploiting the 'sigma' curve of grass growth; if you let it, the pace of growth accelerates until the grass starts thinking about sex and seeds and everything slows down. With youngstock you'll want to graze it a bit earlier than with cows (who can make better use of stemmier feed), but, as long as you feed the soil as well with plenty of residue, the system will work for you.

You won't necessarily get a lot of grazing after a hay cut; as the plants are cut and removed, it saps the energy of the sward in a way that eating half of it and trampling the rest doesn't. Have a go though, it's a lot of fun!

 

[York]

get hold of Andre Voisin books.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/André_Voisin
Very practical approach, never beaten so far in expertise.
York-Th.

 

[The Ruminant]

If you haven't already, I'd highly recommend reading Voisin's "Grass Productivity".

If I remember correctly, some of the very highest yielding grasslands he measured were flood plains that were regularly flooded and grazed methodically at a specific level of growth

 

[DrWazzock]

This isn't scientific but I find that long established permananet pasture that doesn't contain ryegrass:

Doesn't poach so easily in winter
Makes very palatable hay in a fraction of the time that a PRG ley would take.
Seems to do the stock as well as a four year ley as the soil structure and nutrient holding capacity is so much better.

The most I'd do is go for some overseeding, but I wouldn't turn it over.

Four year leys for us always seem to be hungry, take at least a year to get going and in a wet time suffer from compaction.

 

[mikep]

I was trying to explain something of my opinion of grass land management and kept not really being able to rationalise it. I think it really boils down to the fact that I am lazy and as long as the sheep do ok i can't be arsed to reseed. Not scientific I know but probably in the end as good a reason as any.