Moving less soil...

[Will Blackburn]

Yeah i was thinking in terms of hp per row. Don't forget the different potential of a FWD over FWA that we typically have.

 

[Farmer Roy]

we typically use FWA here to, don't see any new FWD until you get over 400hp now

 

[Clive]

It seems to me that I read everywhere of the desire to "move less soil" when it comes to establishment, though often this just means that the person in question has bought a lighter cultivator and is still basically moving all of the soil surface, but possibly at a reduced depth and certainly with newer paint. Alternatively they have bought a drill that is basically a subsoiler with a seed box that, whilst it doesn't actually till in between the rows, it basically does by heaping all of the soil from the slot onto the lands on either side.

Looking at this from a grass weed perspective on heavy land, surely when it comes to actually putting the seed in the ground, moving no soil is actually what we want to be doing, in an ideal world (surface germinating bromes notwithstanding).

I also think that generally the best way to get weeds to grow is to roll.

So, assuming we've got a field ready for planting, it has either got some weeds growing on it which we kill by glyphosate / crimping / flames / laser / drone death rays, or a cover crop which we treat in the same way, or indeed nothing growing on it, in which case we do nothing.

We then need to put some seeds in the ground with a machine that basically floats along, that miraculously manages to apply just the right amount of consolidation to the slot that it doesn't require rolling, but somehow knackers the slugs and stops the slot filling with water, is pulled by a tractor that does less compaction / consolidation in the wheelings than a set of cambridge rolls does.

Can such a solution exist?

10x Fordson dexta equivalents on 710 tyres each pulling a 2 row 750a / boss drill?

I know it's all about soil rather than machines, and this all assumes that the soil is in a fit state to start zero till, but it seems to me (at least based on some tine drill experiments) heavy land nirvana is yet to be reached, though I stand to be corrected. To me this all points towards a swarm robot future, but i'd like to try something now!

Yep ! Robots

We won’t be waiting to much longer

 

[New Puritan]

I must admit that I have half an eye on an organic no till future too- eg wheat sliced into a nice permanent white clover cover that is managed somehow to let the crop in the row grow and suppress the weeds in between. Not quite sure how this could be made to work though!

When you figure it out, please can you tell me?

I'd be really interested in hearing more about achieving that, people allude to it here and there but I can't see how it could work all the way through a diverse rotation in a mild climate. It might involve crimper rollers, but I don't see them as being the all-encompassing solution.

 

[hendrebc]

When you figure it out, please can you tell me?

Controlling white clover is easy. Sheep.

 

[New Puritan]

Controlling white clover is easy. Sheep.

Yeah but then controlling everything else that fills the gaps!

 

[hendrebc]

Yeah but then controlling everything else that fills the gaps!

If the clover is thick enough and the crop is drilled with very little disturbance would there be any gaps for the weeds

 

[Wigeon]

When you figure it out, please can you tell me?

I'd be really interested in hearing more about achieving that, people allude to it here and there but I can't see how it could work all the way through a diverse rotation in a mild climate. It might involve crimper rollers, but I don't see them as being the all-encompassing solution.

No idea, but I might have a crack. Have undersown some spring oats (not sure if it' worked yet), so hopefully something to play with come autumn.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Disc it is then! I must admit that I have half an eye on an organic no till future too- eg wheat sliced into a nice permanent white clover cover that is managed somehow to let the crop in the row grow and suppress the weeds in between. Not quite sure how this could be made to work though!

Yes, it's interesting on the horsepower question. Just been reading Humus and the farmer( published 1946) and whilst he's big into ploughing and subsoiling in particular, all his work, including his 7m rolls, is done with his 'big' 30-50 hp machines.

While not wanting to necessarily go "organic" I am increasingly wanting to move away from synthetic inputs of fert & chem. I have particular concerns about our high reliance on glyphosate ( our whole zero till dryland Cropping systems rely on glyphosate for fallow weed control, which is crucial to us to conserve / build up soil mousture for the next croon - so that is a huge paradigm shift to get around !!! ) for a number of reasons. The total reliance on one product, rapidly developing weed resistance, and growing concerns about what it may be doing to soil biology & human health.
Been doing a lot of reading about organic zero till in the US & South America, where they use cover crops such as rye or oats, roller crimped to provide a mulch layer for weed suppression. I understand the concept, but I seriously think we would struggle to grow that amount of bulk for complete cover, consistently.
It's a real problem that I can't really see an answer to yet . . .
Moisture is our biggest limiting factor & conserving it at every stage is crucial

 

[New Puritan]

If the clover is thick enough and the crop is drilled with very little disturbance would there be any gaps for the weeds

The bit I struggle with is how this would work over a complete rotation, which for me includes lentils. They are really uncompetitive so I think they wouldn't like the white clover very much.

Anyway sorry @Wigeon for diverting your thread. Was your original point regarding using disc drills rather than tined ones? What plant have you undersown your spring oats with? I am intending to buy a disc drill when I can find one (probably a Moore Unidrill as they have been around longer than anything else so are generally more affordable) and once I've got it will no doubt attempt all manner of not-very-likely-to-succeed experiments.

@Farmer Roy - if you have any particularly useful links regarding your reading around organic no-till please share them somewhere on here as I'd really like to see them.

 

[Wigeon]

No worries, it's all good stuff. Basically I was just musing on various things, particularly the 'moving less soil' ambition, which is a noble aim but seems to me (admittedly with not much experience of these things) to be slightly muddled, a bit like me.

I think my point is basically (having just sprayed a field of metcalfe tine drilled wheat that is very much not free from blackgrass), that if you move any soil, and then roll, you will get weeds. I'm not sure that 'less soil' makes much of a difference, apart from the 'not mixing them through the profile' thing. Sure it makes a difference to worms, diesel use and soil carbon though.

This all got me thinking on the usual topics of machinery weight, why the old boys managed to grow a good crop with 'tiny' tractors, how we can tread more lightly but still be timely, etc etc.

If I was to keep rambling I would then conclude that what I would really like to see would be a sector capable of supporting a field full of men and women (whose families were thereby inherently connected to farming), operating tiny tractors, moving no soil with lightweight but state of the art disc drills creating a form of beautiful weed free soil enriching utopia.

 

[Wigeon]

The bit I struggle with is how this would work over a complete rotation, which for me includes lentils. They are really uncompetitive so I think they wouldn't like the white clover very much.

Anyway sorry @Wigeon for diverting your thread. Was your original point regarding using disc drills rather than tined ones? What plant have you undersown your spring oats with? I am intending to buy a disc drill when I can find one (probably a Moore Unidrill as they have been around longer than anything else so are generally more affordable) and once I've got it will no doubt attempt all manner of not-very-likely-to-succeed experiments.

@Farmer Roy - if you have any particularly useful links regarding your reading around organic no-till please share them somewhere on here as I'd really like to see them.

Yes I'm very much there with the not very likely to succeed experiments. Couple that with dodgy workshop skills and it can be a lot of fun! (Or incredibly annoying when your revolutinary drill doctoring expeiment falls apart almost immediately)

 

[Wigeon]

If I was to keep rambling I would then conclude that what I would really like to see would be a sector capable of supporting a field full of men and women (whose families were thereby inherently connected to farming), operating tiny tractors, moving no soil with lightweight but state of the art disc drills creating a form of beautiful weed free soil enriching utopia.

Or robots,

but they are less amusing to have a pint with after work

 

[New Puritan]

Or robots,

but they are less amusing to have a pint with after work

You obviously haven't met my family / work colleagues...

I like the idea of your utopia - again, once you've figured it out please share it on here

 

[hendrebc]

The bit I struggle with is how this would work over a complete rotation, which for me includes lentils. They are really uncompetitive so I think they wouldn't like the white clover very much.

Anyway sorry @Wigeon for diverting your thread. Was your original point regarding using disc drills rather than tined ones? What plant have you undersown your spring oats with? I am intending to buy a disc drill when I can find one (probably a Moore Unidrill as they have been around longer than anything else so are generally more affordable) and once I've got it will no doubt attempt all manner of not-very-likely-to-succeed experiments.

@Farmer Roy - if you have any particularly useful links regarding your reading around organic no-till please share them somewhere on here as I'd really like to see them.

I know nothing about lentils but it might be one of those things that just cant be done without some kind of killing the green underneath. The clover undersow would probably need replacing every now and again as weeds and/or taller grasses slowly made their way into the sward maybe they could be direct drilled into the sprayed off turf or maybe ploughed in very shallow and lightly cultivated or something. It might be about damage limitation not going it with a plough at 10 inches and power harrowing twice as seems to be normal now.
Or maybe drilled through a mulch of some sort. Straw from the previous crop maybe or a cover crop like rye crimp rolled in spring. I dont know now im just rhinking of things ive read and typing as they come into my head

 

[Farmer Roy]

@New Puritan this book is a good start
Also, check out the Rodale Institute in the US. Jeff Moyer is the farm manager
If you use Facebook ( which I think is a marvellous tool for this sort of thing ) check out & like their pages & you will get all sorts of interesting links & suggestions
It's a starting point anyway

In regards to lentils, I think crops like that you may need to terminate a thick cover & let it act as a weed blanket to suppress growth
I don't know really, I never said it was easy

 

[Farmer Roy]

If you look back in the early pages of the " regenerative agriculture " thread, I did put up a lot of links, some may be of interest or value to you

 

[New Puritan]

Thanks @Farmer Roy - I've followed that Regen Ag thread from the beginning, but have to confess I've forgotten what I read at the beginning again now...

I have Moyer's book, I have to say I was a little disappointed with it. Yes he's done a lot with crimper rollers, but the whole book is really about those and not a lot else, once you strip out the really basic stuff he's also put in about soil and crops etc.

Like you say though, it's not going to be easy. If it was easy/obvious, then probably a lot more people would be trying it.

 

[New Puritan]

Been doing a bit of reading, crimper rollers do really seem to be king of the organic-no-till scene:

https://www.no-tillfarmer.com/articles/6497-cover-crops-can-make-organic-no-till-work

https://www.manitobacooperator.ca/crops/can-organic-no-till-work-in-the-field/

https://carbonpilgrim.wordpress.com/2013/05/14/organic-no-till/ (this is about Moyer, but has an interesting bit of background to how he got started)

The second one mentions they end up only missing out 1 or 2 plough passes across 6 years. I do wonder what benefit this actually brings, probably some in CO2 emissions and leaching of nutrients, but I doubt the mycorrhiza like it very much which to my mind are the real benefit of not tilling.

This is interesting-ish too, if you excuse the odd hippy 'ooh' music near the beginning:

 

[Shutesy]

Just a thought I had whilst watching that video, the couple of UK farmers I've seen that have tried crimping have only had a crimp roller on the front or the back of the tractor and haven't always had great results from it. Has anyone tried a crimp roller on the front and back of the tractor or perhaps 2 passes at slightly different angles?