Mules to easycare

[Jackson4]

[QUOTE if that doesn't work then get your cheque book out and put a deposit down for some Exlana ewe lambs (tups are out and the first deposits for next years crop have been taken)

Think i'll try that with my gimmer lamb buyers and see what they say.[/QUOTE]

?? Well its funny how peoples perceptions change? I'd try some to see how they would make money if they were closer, but then i find it interesting to see what a breeder can achieve with sheep...to improve farm profits? Although the easycare sheep i drive past locally aren't a sight, what do they achieve for the guy farming them?.. he's an elderly fella, so no clipping at all, lamb outside and i haven't seen many limp (dont really know is i never leave the village)and theyd probably get r grade dead?? small enough for him to handle... I would think hes pretty happy! I'll search him down and have a word with him.

 

[Keepers]

I am lambing welsh mules outdoors in March on a hay and grass system








However I am also replacing with an easycare breed next year

 

[Jackson4]

If you stick your mules outdoors in April when there's plenty of grass. They'll at least 3 times less labour and time intensive as indoors.
Esp if there out of the Swale, blackie breed ones are more flighty.
Am not saying mules are a great breed, but the op did only asked about outdoor lambing.
Unless there's more than a thousand to one man they'll be fine

But has the mule been bred for unassisted lambing? Figures are somewhere around 14% av losses for outside lambing? When lambs are £70/75/80 average thats alot of lost money to pay hired help for 4 weeks for half a days work?
Is one man per a 1000 sheep capable of reducing these losses in mules? by the time youve effed about catching a lamb and mother to bring back to a shed to mother another on, or the like, in the dark, might have had 10's or 100's of sheep needing help? Whole new question.

 

[Northumberland]

A don't really understand what your getting at any lambs lost more than covers labour spent indoors.
Even Romnys lose a certain% at lambing time.
What is the norm for lamb losses on extensive outdoor lambing in the (easycare bracket)

 

[Hilly]

Yeah by easycare i mean romney, highlander type, not worried about shedding. Something that will lamb themselves outside without have lots of miss mothering and will do there lambs off grass

Just buy a Romney tup and take it from there, mine lamb outside lambs averaged £79.50 live and over £6 ewe fro the wool, the only problem with them is after lambing they are so dour its unreal bad to gather but by clipping time they are fine, get a huntawy same time as the tups n you will be fine im sure.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

If you stick your mules outdoors in April when there's plenty of grass. They'll at least 3 times less labour and time intensive as indoors.
Esp if there out of the Swale, blackie breed ones are more flighty.
Am not saying mules are a great breed, but the op did only asked about outdoor lambing.
Unless there's more than a thousand to one man they'll be fine

My mules have lambed outdoors with little bother to maternal breeds, apart from a few pendulous udders needing culling.
Whilst I'm sure mules could quite happily lamb outdoors to the right breed, imo a large part of the attraction of an 'easier care' breed is closing the flock, selecting to improve the breeding, and not having to pay silly money for replacements.

 

[Jop]

We are moving from a flock of Mules + Texel mules to Romneys, going down both roads because we are wanting to increase ewe numbers. This year we have bought in Romney ewe lambs and some draft ewes and we have put most of our Mules to a Romney tup. Hopefully we wont have to buy any more next year because I am keen to close the flock as soon as I can.

Lambing the Mules inside for 3 weeks from the 1st March, then a weeks gap, then all of the Romneys plus any Mules that didn't get in lamb are lambing outdoors from the 1st April. I'm confident the Mules will be just fine lambing outdoors, as long as they are managed correctly.

We have just had the Eblex stocktake through the post and it is interesting that of the lowland April/May lambing flocks, for average and top third producers, lamb mortality is around 19%. And what is more interesting is that top third producers only scan at 162% whilst the average scan at 173%. The top third producers are making more profit per ewe simply down to lower costs and not higher output. Turnovers vanity, profit is sanity!

 

[exmoor dave]

If you do mean wool shedders then Exmoor Dave would be the man in the know as I think he has started down this route

Either way I would buy the best maternal tup you can and keep the resulting ewe lambs ---if that doesn't work then get your cheque book out and put a deposit down for some Exlana ewe lambs (tups are out and the first deposits for next years crop have been taken)

Yep Tim W is right, I'm beginning to breed exlanas from mules this year, so scaling up.

So far have just bred from shedders but I want to speed things up now my mind is made up. But I don't want to go down the route of buying loads of females in.

Plan is keep all the exlana ewe lambs out of the exmoor mules. Selected as I already do with the Suffolk crosses.
Then in my experience if they are good shedders, they usually show it by a year old.
The good shedders (and some not so good depending on numbers/ success) will join the April lambing flock for further exlana breeding.

The poor shedders will join the the February lambing flock and go to a terminal tup.

Already have 70 shedders which will continue to be bred to exlanas.

So stage one is get my April flock over to exlanas.

Then if I'm happy then I'll probably chance the Feb flock as well.

I'm more and more convinced it's the right move- only last night my Bro bought home a ewe from out the other farm who had got cast and eyes pecked out, I expect that in the spring but not the fooking autumn and she wasn't the first and it's hard to devote the time to checking ewes daily this time of year esp when they are 15 miles away.

Also a big potential opportunity has presented it's self over the next few years and shedders would fit the bill perfectly

 

[Jackson4]

A don't really understand what your getting at any lambs lost more than covers labour spent indoors.
Even Romnys lose a certain% at lambing time.
What is the norm for lamb losses on extensive outdoor lambing in the (easycare bracket)

I don't know, good question. Is the width of the pelvis scanned as part of the routine of choosing easycary rams? Or do they record this out in the field and select accordingly. It is selected for I think in nz, go would know more than me. I'd have thought pulling lambs isn't easy care at all, when it could be easily improved?
You'd want to fit the right sheep to the system there bye not making a lot of work, or alot of losses?

 

[GTB]

Mules will lamb just fine outside but if you use a Charolais tup the lambs can be a bit too soft if the weather is bad.

 

[Jackson4]

Yep Tim W is right, I'm beginning to breed exlanas from mules this year, so scaling up.

So far have just bred from shedders but I want to speed things up now my mind is made up. But I don't want to go down the route of buying loads of females in.

Plan is keep all the exlana ewe lambs out of the exmoor mules. Selected as I already do with the Suffolk crosses.
Then in my experience if they are good shedders, they usually show it by a year old.
The good shedders (and some not so good depending on numbers/ success) will join the April lambing flock for further exlana breeding.

The poor shedders will join the the February lambing flock and go to a terminal tup.

Already have 70 shedders which will continue to be bred to exlanas.

So stage one is get my April flock over to exlanas.

Then if I'm happy then I'll probably chance the Feb flock as well.

I'm more and more convinced it's the right move- only last night my Bro bought home a ewe from out the other farm who had got cast and eyes pecked out, I expect that in the spring but not the fooking autumn and she wasn't the first and it's hard to devote the time to checking ewes daily this time of year esp when they are 15 miles away.

Also a big potential opportunity has presented it's self over the next few years and shedders would fit the bill perfectly

You'll just have to not propose mid shedding!

If you wanted to switch from nc mules lambed indoors late march to April lambing outside with easycare sheep what would be the best way to go about it? Cross the mules to a maternal sire and keep the trouble free ewe lambs or just buy in easycare replacements? How have others made the switch?

awq (that was the big brun dog jumping on the keypad and pressing return... hes had enough) You'll have to clarify what your trying to improve upon from lambing your mules outside, what the trouble free gimme lambs will be troubled by to those who say just run mules outside? Or are you after easycares because they are wool shedders?

 

[CopperBeech]

Just my opinion, but i'm fairly sure that any breed could be made into an outdoor lambing flock. It would just depend upon applying the right kind of selection pressure. . . . quite probably breaking some animal rights laws in this country though. But eventually the flock would do what you wanted. However, how long this would take, would very much depend upon what you started with, hence the above suggestions. I bought some exlana, and some easy care to try out on a very low input system, and so far impressed, a long with the Charmoise, they seem to do well for what i'm doing and where I am. But locally I know of mules, welsh mountain, black welsh mountain, wilts horns, rouisson, lleyn and dorset that are all lambed out, some just do it better than others.

 

[Jackson4]

Just my opinion, but i'm fairly sure that any breed could be made into an outdoor lambing flock. It would just depend upon applying the right kind of selection pressure. . . . quite probably breaking some animal rights laws in this country though. But eventually the flock would do what you wanted. However, how long this would take, would very much depend upon what you started with, hence the above suggestions. I bought some exlana, and some easy care to try out on a very low input system, and so far impressed, a long with the Charmoise, they seem to do well for what i'm doing and where I am. But locally I know of mules, welsh mountain, black welsh mountain, wilts horns, rouisson, lleyn and dorset that are all lambed out, some just do it better than others.

I know..quickest way to not have them in the gene pool It's a contradiction isnt it... chase after them with the first aid kit to help their welfare, then end up with millions of sheep each year which suffer the ailments you were trying to help them with! Damn! Keep track of those that can and breed from them. Breed for a narrow triangular shaped front and wide pelvic bones... maternal and paternal.
I dont know if sheptastic has experience of the Exlana but i dont, could you please give some description of what they are selected for and what is better about them from what you had?

 

[Jackson4]

Surely the biggest problem with lambing mules outside and keeping it easycare is the triplets... even if you keep the trips in youve got to mess about finding a single or double outside to mother it on with?! I chose one cross away and i lamb in. You couldn't lamb hundreds of triplets outside without alot of labour, expense or deaths? (i know i know, theres a few 'breeders' of finns and bfls that do it)

 

[Poorbuthappy]

A don't really understand what your getting at any lambs lost more than covers labour spent indoors.
Even Romnys lose a certain% at lambing time.
What is the norm for lamb losses on extensive outdoor lambing in the (easycare bracket)

Early days yet, but I've found as I've been switching from indoor to outdoor lambing that the indoor flock were losing at least as many lambs as the outdoor flock. That's with similar lambing percentages.
I do pick up a triplet lamb if she's struggling to rear them.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Surely the biggest problem with lambing mules outside and keeping it easycare is the triplets... even if you keep the trips in youve got to mess about finding a single or double outside to mother it on with?! I chose one cross away and i lamb in. You couldn't lamb hundreds of triplets outside without alot of labour, expense or deaths? (i know i know, theres a few 'breeders' of finns and bfls that do it)

You can't lamb hundreds of triplets inside without a lot of labour, expense and often deaths either.

Take note of @Jop 's post above and GO's past advice. High lambing percentage doesn't necessarily equal high profit.
That said,if you're on limited acreage and have plenty of time on your hands, it may be that high lambing percentage is the way forward.
It's a shame Creedmoor never made it across from the other side as they had a really interesting system lambing outdoors with high prolificacy and getting a high proportion of lambs away by weaning. Think @JD-Kid knows them, perhaps he could give a prod?

Personally I've sourced a prolific strain of Romneys and am going to see what level I can live best with. I suspect it'll be easier to lower the levels than raise them.

 

[Global ovine]

I don't know, good question. Is the width of the pelvis scanned as part of the routine of choosing easycary rams? Or do they record this out in the field and select accordingly. It is selected for I think in nz, go would know more than me. I'd have thought pulling lambs isn't easy care at all, when it could be easily improved?
You'd want to fit the right sheep to the system there bye not making a lot of work, or alot of losses?

Unless somebody has developed an anal probe for scanning pelvic aperture in ewes, I know of no way to select FOR easy birthing other doing what we did in NZ and that is select AGAINST difficult births, thereby removing small pelvic ewes from the gene pool. My research back in the early 1980s showed that the ewe pelvis had the largest effect on difficult birth, followed by the shape of the lamb (blocky heads, wide shoulders, deep briskets and thick legs all played their part in this). I still had some unexplained effect, which I strongly suspect was due to the nature of the ewe. This is their ability to get stuck into the job of birthing rather than giving up easily.
All these traits have to be tackled by the pedigree breeders, or commercial farmers just waste time culling by buying another dose of birthing difficulty with the next tups purchased.

A good test to pelvic size is if you have to assist a ewe and your closed fist cannot easily pass through the pelvis after lambing, then she should be culled. (please give her a shot of antibiotic after that tho').

The regional lamb loss average for NZ southern South Island hill country (indoor lambing non existent) is 14.7%, scanning % to weaning % (based on a survey of 83 bench marking farmers over 3 years, including one severe storm year) where the weaning % resulted in an average of 129%. Most of these farms the ewes are prelamb shorn and non shepherded. Romneys are the main pure breed or main part of the cross.

 

[Jackson4]

Thanks GO, for or against? same outcome (blimey hes pedantic)... a couple of my ewes which have had breach births have been so tight in the pelvis that you'd struggle to get your hand in. If you recorded these traits back to the ram, the ewes hes bred from etc etc. You'd think the easycare breeders would have this high on the list.

 

[neilo]

Thanks GO, for or against? same outcome (blimey hes pedantic)... a couple of my ewes which have had breach births have been so tight in the pelvis that you'd struggle to get your hand in. If you recorded these traits back to the ram, the ewes hes bred from etc etc. You'd think the easycare breeders would have this high on the list.

It's certainly high on my list. If I have to assist a lambing and I think the pelvis is tight, then the end comes off her ear and she never breeds again. There may be others in the flock with a tight pelvis for all I know, but if I never assist them, I won't find out, or need to I guess.

None of that would be possible without running a closed flock IMO, or the replacement you buy could be just as bad or worse for all you would know.

 

[CharcoalWally]

I moved from lambing my Scotch Mule ewes inside to outside six or seven years back and this is on an unforgiving part of the country weather-wise with strong winds and high Spring rainfall.

So the main change in the system was to go from the Charollais to the Texel to give a lamb with better wool cover at birth.

I've found it to work well on the whole. On even just average , cool West Coast weather the ewes work away fine and lamb down fine with minimal assistance. [Think I had my hand in 3 or 4 of them this year , so I'm happy with that.] I tup/lamb late in the season so I don't tend to get too many triplets which is something that doesn't bother me. Any that do produce three , one is automatically removed.

Always try to have a disinfected shed on standby though in case the weather turns severe which it easily can here even in May. Wouldn't fancy going back to indoor lambing if it could be avoided.

Always feel a bit flat after lambing is over. Miss the buzz of the adrenaline rush.