New information about what Environmental Land Management schemes will pay for

[delilah]

Exactly. Should be paid at the end of the year if you've managed to do it. Not sign up for 5 years of forcing yourself to do it not knowing how it will work. To be honest i'd say the same of all the schemes. Pay after the fact, and with no ties to keep doing it year after year.

It's a complete f@ck up. I'm going to bed.

 

[Clive]

Not so easy if you live in the far SW.
The insecticide option is a bit of a post code lottery option

not sure it has to be - using insecticide is a big reason for the need for insecticide ime

i know some areas are higher risk than others but 15 yrs ago i would have said my area was too risky and we needed them, many of my neighbours probably do still think thy need them and routinely use then i expect .. …….. but they REALLY don’t need to IF they build beneficial and soil / plant health / reduce synthetic input use

……. let’s stay on topic though, the insecticide option is worthy of a thread on its own (and many such threads already do exist on tff )

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Are there any effective insecticides for wireworm?

I don't know, I havent destroyed any PP for well over a decade.

 

[Clive]

Is the wrong answer.
A core commitment of ELMS is to support productivity.
You need to explain why committing yourself to the likelihood of losing yield, in order to get a payment, is better than claiming that payment should you have been able to achieve the yield without resorting to the use of insecticides.
I will save you the bother. You can't explain it.

in my case i can see no loss of yield through selecting the right options for our situation

css will cost crop output but it pays more than income forgone on our scheme that’s mostly on unproductive land

 

[onesiedale]

Which is disapointing when the ceral growers are probably best poised to be profitable without subsidy. whearas stock is a lot more dependant on subsidy for their profit. The whole idea of subisdy being to subsidise the production of food has gone out of the window with this govornment! Seems they want less food produced rather than more.

the lunatics have really taken over the asylum i feel for you livestock boys

Its not so much about the loss of subsidy for the livestock sector, but more about the lack of recognition and reward for providing the public good that DEFRA want to see. Grassland provides;
water quality,
flood mitigation
air quality,
soil quality
amenity value,
carbon storage,
biodiversity
rural employment and social infrastructure
food production

Overall, grassland has been overlooked in this vision of growing a green economy.

 

[Jsmith2211]

@Janet Hughes Defra A question I have for you. Does DEFRA believe in increasing the UKs self sufficiency in food, or does DEFRA subscribe to the current trend of "lets just import food and grow butterflies"? Also does DEFRA predict these schemes to increase or decrease the supply of food in the country, and do they believe that the price will go up or down based on these new schemes?

 

[Jsmith2211]

Its not so much about the loss of subsidy for the livestock sector, but more about the lack of recognitionand reward for providing the public good that DEFRA want to see. Grassland provides;
water quality,
flood mitigation
air quality,
soil quality
amenity value,
carbon storage,
biodiversity
rural employment and social infrastructure
food production

Overall, grassland has been overlooked in this vision of growing a green economy.

especially mixed agriculture, where dung can be used to decrease bagged fertiliser usage and increase organic matter. Oh and intercropping fits brilliantly into a mixed system as you dont have to separate out the two/more crops, just throw it all through the mill and feed.

 

[Mark Hatton]

Now this isn’t meant to be an insult or getting personal but only out of pure interest can I ask @Janet Hughes Defra are you a vegetarian or vegan…? Am I allowed to even ask……?

If you you need to ask…you already know the answer, a tad inappropriate???

 

[wanton dwarf]

Quite alot of negativity here. With the range of options now available and the continuous improvement, I feel pretty excited about what we can do on farm over the coming years.

Alongside the current progression in agtech and food production generally, stacking SFI options looks increasingly beneficial. As well as CS evolution for non-production areas. Things might take a while to be well integrated, but surely the direction of British agriculture is looking good.

Great work @Janet Hughes Defra and team

Says the "Agricultural Drone Company" ?

 

[Hindsight]

I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that DEFRA and their advisors have swallowed the lie that ruminants are responsible for global warming despite their being part of the carbon cycle.
On that basis SFI has been set up to fail when applied to any operation apart from large scale arable.
The plan being to put all grass farms running livestock out of business as support is effectively removed. That way the mythical carbon zero target can be met despite the fact that meat will be imported and everyone can carry on flying abroad.
Anyone in authority prepared to show me why I am wrong in my assessment @Janet Hughes Defra ?

The answer to your question is in this programme broadcast earlier today. All farmers should listen to it. Even arable farmers.

BBC Inside Science - Vegetarian school dinners - BBC Sounds

Can serving less meat in school dinners help the UK reach its climate goals?

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Hindsight]

I don't know, I havent destroyed any PP for well over a decade.

Not that I can think of.

 

[hughwra]

Says the "Agricultural Drone Company" ?

My views are my own

 

[wanton dwarf]

Compare the arable farm example above to a lowland organic farmer whose land is 100% SSSI grassland and has an existing stewardship agreement with a low & no input grassland option over the parcels.

This farmer loses BPS, what can they claim back under SFI?

All I can think of is that they can apply for a one-off £589 for an advisor to produce a nutrient management plan. Everything else is restricted due to double funding / paying for the same outcomes twice as they have an existing stewardship agreement.

So this type of farmer loses BPS and is unable to recoup anything back at all under the new schemes.

Now think to yourself, which farmers did you expect to be rewarded most under Public Money for Public Goods ?

1. The large-scale intensive arable farmer who used to only claim BPS
2. The organic SSSI grassland farmer who claimed BPS but also farmed under stewardship agreements for decades

Environmentally focused livestock / grassland farmers are being totally betrayed here and I cannot understand why there's not more outrage

I would expect all farmers to benefit roughly the same from what ever scheme is created. Surely there is no other reason to do otherwise ?

If all farmers do NOT maintain a status quo then HMG & DEFRA are promoting imports - which means less tax income, less employment, less UK food, lower food quality, higher food miles and hence a higher Carbon Footprint.

If HMG & DEFRA do NOT maintain the status quo then they aren't the UK government supporting UK peoples are they ?

 

[Mark Hatton]

The answer to your question is in this programme broadcast earlier today. All farmers should listen to it. Even arable farmers.

BBC Inside Science - Vegetarian school dinners - BBC Sounds

Can serving less meat in school dinners help the UK reach its climate goals?

www.bbc.co.uk

Personally getting a little sick of this rhetoric when it’s proven air quality improved and the environment generally benefited through lockdown when there was less traffic and aircraft flying, but no one wants to have that discussion. Reducing livestock in the uk will have little or no impact, especially when the dumb ass politicians have again voted to continue to allow sewage to be pumped into rivers for the next 15 years!

 

[Hindsight]

Personally getting a little sick of this rhetoric when it’s proven air quality improved and the environment generally benefited through lockdown when there was less traffic and aircraft flying, but no one wants to have that discussion. Reducing livestock in the uk will have little or no impact, especially when the dumb ass politicians have again voted to continue to allow sewage to be pumped into rivers for the next 15 years!

Yes, it was tedious listening to this earlier today, especially the opening statements for the first couple of minutes. The rest of the programme was bearable. But the first two minutes set the policy of government. Which I presume is supported by all departments of government, thus must include Defra. Hey ho.

 

[wanton dwarf]

If DEFRA were serious about increasing the chances for wildlife they would remove the protection afforded to top end predators under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. No coincidence that there has been a decline in farmland birds over the past 40 years but an increase in raptors and of course Badgers given greater protection under separate legislation than I am afforded in my own house.

I have to laugh really at what I've seen.

It is appalling, IF you wanted to increase ground nesting birds you wouldn't do any of these schemes as they potentially will do nothing other than feed predators - which breeds more predators, resulting in less wildlife.

I wonder if those who breed Partridge & Pheasant know how to go about maybe ? Say have nesting grounds where eggs are harvested post laying to promote more eggs to be layed. Eggs grown in incubators in captivity and a breeding program.

You could even tag the chicks and see what predators are reducing numbers and god forbid actually do something about it - rather than chucking barrow loads of cash at useless "Charities".

 

[aangus]

To me it looks like the livestock farms have been hung out to dry, sacrificial lamb so to speak

 

[wanton dwarf]

My views are my own

Either you are a farmer or not. If you are not a farmer then how can you tell one way or another if the direction of DEFRA is good or bad ?

 

[Mark Hatton]

I’m yet to draw any real conclusions, what alarms me slightly is the lack discussion around long term food security and the obsession of importing more and more food, our unique climate should be the driver of what we produce, why the hell would you want to further reduce livestock numbers when we have some of the best grass in the world, I struggle to see any common sense in a lot of decisions that get made.

 

[hughwra]

Either you are a farmer or not. If you are not a farmer then how can you tell one way or another if the direction of DEFRA is good or bad ?

Yep farmer. Just trying to digest your last post.