No-till versus ploughing -- does increased stratification help?

[deleted user 837354]

I'm going with a nice round number for that, in fact it's the roundest number there is.

I feel vindicated by NIAB trial work showing less root mass in cover crops that have had artificial fertiliser applied.

Of course- they don't need to work that hard to find nutrient- it is in the uppermost layers, why would they go searching deeper?

Nitrogen applications release a lot of nutrient into a localised region of the soil which becomes available in a very short space of time. It makes plants lazy and lush because they suck it up as fast as they possibly can in an attempt to horde it.

Applying nitrogen to a cover crop to my way of thinking is mental, the whole point of the cover crop is to ensure it soaks up any nutrients which are in the available pool and immobilse it to stop it leaving ship.

Organic matter concentrating at the surface is replicating what occurs in nature- you don't want to bury the stuff as you increase the likelihood of it reaching an anaerobic condition. Obviously the bulk of soil activity is occurring where oxygen can freely reach, you want all crop residues or manures and unavailable nutrients in this 'pool', so that when the soil warms, the bugs go mad and begin unleashing what they can for your crop to pick up.

Better surface tilth is just full of win since the soil will naturally offer better soil to seed contact, it will be more resistant to heavy rain and it will be able to allow water to infiltrate. With better microbial activity it is also going to digest all that lignin you guys are throwing over it annually as well. Naturally increased air spaces in the uppermost layers will also mean they breath better, seeds/plants are less likely to drown and they will warm faster in spring, too.

The more tillage that is performed the more carbon you will encourage to oxidise at a much higher rate than it would do otherwise- as we know, grass and other perennial crops massively change soils because of their extensive root networks and the accumulation of what I want to call leaf litter but shouldn't. Whilst we do not have perennial cereals we can try to emulate them as best we can be minimising the length of time a soil goes without plant cover and by doing much less in the way of soil disturbance.

It is an interesting subject this no-till thing, it deserves attention not only from a cost saving standpoint, but also I think it might begin to improve some of this heavy sludge some of us are stuck trying to work with. And what have we got to lose? It is clear that ploughing and beating airspace into soils mechanically isn't really a long term solution any longer.

 

[The Ruminant]

What I do believe is that people who have made themselves famous, and earn significant money from how they tell people their farm works (note here that they say it, it's not a fact), have a very direct conflict of interest that makes them inherently untrustworthy. That's not to say that they are wrong, or intentionally dishonest, but you've got to bear in mind what they have to gain from doing what they do.

Follow the money.

True in many cases but, I'd suggest, not in the case of Gabe Brown. As you'll probably know he doesn't take money for speaking engagements, other than to cover his out of pocket expenses. He believes it is his duty, in God's eyes, to spread the word about how to farm more sustainably and profitably.

 

[dontknowanything]

True in many cases but, I'd suggest, not in the case of Gabe Brown. As you'll probably know he doesn't take money for speaking engagements, other than to cover his out of pocket expenses. He believes it is his duty, in God's eyes, to spread the word about how to farm more sustainably and profitably.

Pretty sure he takes fairy fat cheque for hosting farm visits, as he does several hundred per year

 

[Feldspar]

True in many cases but, I'd suggest, not in the case of Gabe Brown. As you'll probably know he doesn't take money for speaking engagements, other than to cover his out of pocket expenses. He believes it is his duty, in God's eyes, to spread the word about how to farm more sustainably and profitably.

Interesting. Confirmation bias and underlying intuitive weighting of moral preferences (e.g. those who strongly weight the care / harm part as characterised by J. Haidt are much more likely to think no-till is worth pursuing) are still strong driving factors in leaning one's gut feeling towards one direction or another. That said, he could be onto something.

 

[The Ruminant]

Pretty sure he takes fairy fat cheque for hosting farm visits, as he does several hundred per year

He didn't charge me and the "other fellow" (some American rancher called Ray) when we rocked up at short notice to see his set up. In fact he took time out from his day to collect me from my hotel, showed me his operations, dropped me off with Jay Fuhrer and collected me later that evening. Maybe he does charge for some visits but all I've ever heard is that he refuses payment

 

[dontknowanything]

True in many cases but, I'd suggest, not in the case of Gabe Brown. As you'll probably know he doesn't take money for speaking engagements, other than to cover his out of pocket expenses. He believes it is his duty, in God's eyes, to spread the word about how to farm more sustainably and profitably.

The other counter to this is how he markets his meat. When I was there he proudly told how his meat is much more nutrient dense, and healthier to eat. He then went on to say how he sold it for very high prices at local markets. I asked how he could justify restricting access to healthy food to the rich - especially when his COP is so much lower than conventional systems. He had no answer for this. My point is, I think his motivation is not just doing God's work, he also worships at the altar of the dollar. As do we all.

 

[dontknowanything]

He didn't charge me and the "other fellow" (some American rancher called Ray) when we rocked up at short notice to see his set up. In fact he took time out from his day to collect me from my hotel, showed me his operations, dropped me off with Jay Fuhrer and collected me later that evening. Maybe he does charge for some visits but all I've ever heard is that he refuses payment

I think he charges corporate clients.

 

[BSH]

He certainly charged the group I was with for a visit. I'm sure he makes more money from speaking/visits than farming. Joel Salatin charges a fortune!

 

[marco]

Interesting. Confirmation bias and underlying intuitive weighting of moral preferences (e.g. those who strongly weight the care / harm part as characterised by J. Haidt are much more likely to think no-till is worth pursuing) are still strong driving factors in leaning one's gut feeling towards one direction or another. That said, he could be onto something.

While these are all impressive words and phrases, do you ever do anything by gut feeling? Do you feel that the plough is the most effective/efficient establishment tool for your buisness? Would you think that rotational grass would be the way of getting your farm into dd/notill rather than straight from ploughing tillage?

 

[Feldspar]

While these are all impressive words and phrases, do you ever do anything by gut feeling? Do you feel that the plough is the most effective/efficient establishment tool for your buisness? Would you think that rotational grass would be the way of getting your farm into dd/notill rather than straight from ploughing tillage?

The more I understand about the way humans think, the less that I am keen to trust my intuitions or gut feeling.

No, I don't feel that the plough is the most effective/efficient establishment tool, but I do think it is a tool in the toolbox. I don't like ploughing, but I recognise its worth in some situations. Hope to have 2 year legume leys as part of mid-tier, so will have a chance to experiment with those. I think rotational leys may have a place.

 

[SilliamWhale]

The more I understand about the way humans think, the less that I am keen to trust my intuitions or gut feeling.

No, I don't feel that the plough is the most effective/efficient establishment tool, but I do think it is a tool in the toolbox. I don't like ploughing, but I recognise its worth in some situations. Hope to have 2 year legume leys as part of mid-tier, so will have a chance to experiment with those. I think rotational leys may have a place.

You say that but I read a book last year (I know clever aren't I?) called the

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/Intuitive-Farmer-Inspiring-Management-Peter-L-Nuthall/191045513X

It was an odd sort of book but written about farm management as a novel (no sex scene alas). The writer was a professor of farm management and so had collated a lot of research over the years which gave him a base but he still said that gut instinct and intuition is as vital as anything. And that you can also improve your intuitive decision making too.

How much do you get paid in England for a 2 yr legume ley?

 

[marco]

The more I understand about the way humans think, the less that I am keen to trust my intuitions or gut feeling.

No, I don't feel that the plough is the most effective/efficient establishment tool, but I do think it is a tool in the toolbox. I don't like ploughing, but I recognise its worth in some situations. Hope to have 2 year legume leys as part of mid-tier, so will have a chance to experiment with those. I think rotational leys may have a place.

Are you bringing that portable fence with you to groundswell this year? If you stop listening to your gut feelings you may end up leading a very safe and unfulfilled working life.

 

[Feldspar]

As for stratification - do you have any info on stratification of nutrients in grasslands as well - if the situation is similar then how big a problem is it and if its not similar ,why not?

This is a good question about grasslands. IIRC they are more stratified than ploughed ground, but less stratified than no-till cropped land. Clearly long-term pasture is good for the soil -- the question is how much of that benefit happens because of stratification? It might be that you can't get the benefits without stratification (which is the point some people were making about no-till), in which case it's a moot point as to whether it's inherently good or bad.

 

[Feldspar]

Are you bringing that portable fence with you to groundswell this year? If you stop listening to your gut feelings you may end up leading a very safe and unfulfilled working life.

Not if it's an electric one!

I still end up making risky decisions and ones which involve a lot of capital. I just try and take those decisions based upon the sort of calculations that could be written down, argued and explained on a piece of paper. Sometimes that means reaching a decision takes a bit longer, but that doesn't make it a worse decision. Often there is a part of the decision that is based upon unknowns, but that doesn't automatically make it a gut decision.

 

[Feldspar]

You say that but I read a book last year (I know clever aren't I?) called the

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/Intuitive-Farmer-Inspiring-Management-Peter-L-Nuthall/191045513X

It was an odd sort of book but written about farm management as a novel (no sex scene alas). The writer was a professor of farm management and so had collated a lot of research over the years which gave him a base but he still said that gut instinct and intuition is as vital as anything. And that you can also improve your intuitive decision making too.

How much do you get paid in England for a 2 yr legume ley?

Would be interesting to read that book. I think the types of book I referenced above (Haidt, Khaneman, Tversky, Ariely etc) is another way of getting to better decision making. In seeing, more from the realms of psychology, where human decision making is irrational, you can become more alert to deviations from what is likely to yield knowledge rather than just beliefs.

I think 2 year legume ley is about £520/ha/yr.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Would be interesting to read that book. I think the types of book I referenced above (Haidt, Khaneman, Tversky, Ariely etc) is another way of getting to better decision making. In seeing, more from the realms of psychology, where human decision making is irrational, you can become more alert to deviations from what is likely to yield knowledge rather than just beliefs.

I think 2 year legume ley is about £520/ha/yr.

To be honest its a lot more lightweight than what an Oxbridge graduate should read. Its very very simple, almost whimsical in the sense that is written for farmers who don't really want to read books. Knowledge is a bit of funny one, you can know lots but be impractical at applying it

 

[Feldspar]

To be honest its a lot more lightweight than what an Oxbridge graduate should read. Its very very simple, almost whimsical in the sense that is written for farmers who don't really want to read books. Knowledge is a bit of funny one, you can know lots but be impractical at applying it

I do take the general point about ivory tower knowledge. I remember going round with a pretty experienced and good farmer a while back. My memory is a bit hazy, but I remember them clearly saying one of the more intelligent farmers they knew was also one of the worst farmers they knew for the reason you describe. I remember the phrase being that "he would never nail his colours to the mast and get on with things".

I think a key skill in farming is the ability to make good progress when conditions are right. I am quite good at dithering about whether to go fertiliser spreading or spraying which can lead to getting behind. My father is even worse at this, particularly if there is a risk of making a bit of a mess of the tramlines, even if the agronomic need is fairly urgent.

I still like the maxim, "Don't put off until tomorrow something that can be done today". Same as "early never borrows from late". Don't always manage to put this into practice though. Today being an example: ground has been drying and is still a bit tacky. No neighbours out spraying and it is a Sunday, but probably could have gone out this afternoon and sprayed some glyphosate when the wind dropped. Ended up dithering for too long and then decided it wasn't worth it. A determined person probably would have gone out and done 70ac. A few lost occasions like that do start to add up.

 

[E_B]

@Feldspar Not entirely relevant to your thread but was listening to this podcast today and thought I'd dump it in here. Most interesting around 30 mins onwards.

https://www.striptillfarmer.com/articles/2179-podcast-the-dos-and-donts-of-fertilizer-banding

 

[ajd132]

I do take the general point about ivory tower knowledge. I remember going round with a pretty experienced and good farmer a while back. My memory is a bit hazy, but I remember them clearly saying one of the more intelligent farmers they knew was also one of the worst farmers they knew for the reason you describe. I remember the phrase being that "he would never nail his colours to the mast and get on with things".

I think a key skill in farming is the ability to make good progress when conditions are right. I am quite good at dithering about whether to go fertiliser spreading or spraying which can lead to getting behind. My father is even worse at this, particularly if there is a risk of making a bit of a mess of the tramlines, even if the agronomic need is fairly urgent.

I still like the maxim, "Don't put off until tomorrow something that can be done today". Same as "early never borrows from late". Don't always manage to put this into practice though. Today being an example: ground has been drying and is still a bit tacky. No neighbours out spraying and it is a Sunday, but probably could have gone out this afternoon and sprayed some glyphosate when the wind dropped. Ended up dithering for too long and then decided it wasn't worth it. A determined person probably would have gone out and done 70ac. A few lost occasions like that do start to add up.

You should have drilled you're beans.

 

[Feldspar]

You should have drilled you're beans.

*your