No-tillers should be paid for their services to society

In the interest of the new found drive to not hive off potentially important topics into sub-folders, which in turn reduces visibility, I thought I'd stick to the main section with this post.

This video (
)
links quite nicely with Alan Savory's talk a while back (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI)
by reaffirming the chronic decline of humus and organic matter (still need to properly learn the difference between the two) in the world's soils, and also by highlighting the consequences of this decline and the ways to reverse it. Well of course readers of this section of TFF knew that anyway so the above hardly constitutes news but good at least to see it entering the public domain, albeit in a small way.

One of my reactions to the video was that the difference in the wider impact of a farmer who is destroying their soil and one is who actually improving it is really quite large. OK the differing levels of humus in the soil will impact on the individual farmer by directly affecting their profitability (as claimed in the video) but the destructive farmer does not pay the price for the wider impact she / he causes - that is, the effect on waterways, decline in nutritional quality of food, impact upon the climate, biodiversity and the usage of chemicals which adversely affect human health et cetera.

Now any hope that we can quickly start, individually and in each case, to put a price on these factors, which are currently valueless, is probably rather fanciful. It does seem to me, however, that there is an indirect way to at least begin to roughly price these effects en masse and, also, that an opportunity current presents itself to pursue this avenue of possibility. I refer to the current renegotiation of the CAP and in particular to the quite significant tranches of money that will be reserved for 'greening measures'.

I, for one, will be mightily annoyed if we have to have 7% of our land sitting around doing nothing or actually declining in quality each year because this will literally not be green in any way shape or form. My displeasure would be mollified considerably if that 7% could be used to do something useful, namely grow a cover crop, and I would even be pleased if the value of such an activity was recognised by some form of greening payment. Far better to pay people to do the right thing rather than the reverse.

The second area, which relates more closely to the thread title and continues the sentiment expressed in the last sentence, is to do with financial incentives for no-till. It seems that current flat rate subsidy levels in my area (I make no comment about the livestock side about which I am largely ignorant), and certainly on our farm, are sufficiently high to permit highly inefficient farming with a vast surplus of tractors and machinery, much to the joy of the machinery sales people who get to charge 'UK prices'. Again, what is the point of paying people to do the wrong thing, or rather paying people enough that they have the luxury of profiting whilst doing the wrong thing? Now I'm not advocating some sort of tillage directive which legislates against the ownership of ploughs - if someone wants to plough that's their prerogative but there's no moral requirement on the part of the taxpayer to subside an often recreational and damaging activity. The story of the American farmer who no-tills because that's what the bank manager dictates is not an entirely sad story.

The further problem is that I'm not convinced that just lowering subsidies across the board will drive a huge change towards no-till; it ought to but I'm not sure it would. The reason is highlighted in Knockie's report that all of this neighbours think him to be mentally deficient; in other words some people would rather sell up or go bust ploughing than admit that their cranky neighbour actually wasn't so crazy after all. I think, given the outline of the CAP reforms that we've seen, that a portion of the greening payments should be targeted toward conservation / regenerative (prefer this word) agriculture. That way the politicians can actually say that the CAP money is actually paying for a useful and beneficial service rendered to the public (might actually allow them to hit their 2020 targets which they'll otherwise probably fail to meet) rather than simply paying for my farm to buy its seventh plough even though none would do.

So, if you're wondering what to do with yourself before harvest and you believe that the influence of the individual is not precisely zero, you ought to bend the ear of your local NFU person, Natural England person etc. and try and prevent a bungling of the upcoming reforms.

Here endeth my Saturday rant.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
In the interest of the new found drive to not hive off potentially important topics into sub-folders, which in turn reduces visibility, I thought I'd stick to the main section with this post.

This video (
)
links quite nicely with Alan Savory's talk a while back (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI)
by reaffirming the chronic decline of humus and organic matter (still need to properly learn the difference between the two) in the world's soils, and also by highlighting the consequences of this decline and the ways to reverse it. Well of course readers of this section of TFF knew that anyway so the above hardly constitutes news but good at least to see it entering the public domain, albeit in a small way.

One of my reactions to the video was that the difference in the wider impact of a farmer who is destroying their soil and one is who actually improving it is really quite large. OK the differing levels of humus in the soil will impact on the individual farmer by directly affecting their profitability (as claimed in the video) but the destructive farmer does not pay the price for the wider impact she / he causes - that is, the effect on waterways, decline in nutritional quality of food, impact upon the climate, biodiversity and the usage of chemicals which adversely affect human health et cetera.

Now any hope that we can quickly start, individually and in each case, to put a price on these factors, which are currently valueless, is probably rather fanciful. It does seem to me, however, that there is an indirect way to at least begin to roughly price these effects en masse and, also, that an opportunity current presents itself to pursue this avenue of possibility. I refer to the current renegotiation of the CAP and in particular to the quite significant tranches of money that will be reserved for 'greening measures'.

I, for one, will be mightily annoyed if we have to have 7% of our land sitting around doing nothing or actually declining in quality each year because this will literally not be green in any way shape or form. My displeasure would be mollified considerably if that 7% could be used to do something useful, namely grow a cover crop, and I would even be pleased if the value of such an activity was recognised by some form of greening payment. Far better to pay people to do the right thing rather than the reverse.

The second area, which relates more closely to the thread title and continues the sentiment expressed in the last sentiment, is to do with financial incentives for no-till. It seems that current flat rate subsidy levels in my area (I make no comment about the livestock side about which I am largely ignorant), and certainly on our farm, are sufficiently high to permit highly inefficient farming with a vast surplus of tractors and machinery, much to the joy of the machinery sales people who get to charge 'UK prices'. Again, what is the point of paying people to do the wrong thing, or rather paying people enough that they have the luxury of profiting whilst doing the wrong thing? Now I'm not advocating some sort of tillage directive which legislates against the ownership of ploughs - if someone wants to plough that's their prerogative but there's no moral requirement on the part of the taxpayer to subside an often recreational and damaging activity. The story of the American farmer who no-tills because that's what the bank manager dictates is not an entirely sad story.

The further problem is that I'm not convinced that just lowering subsidies across the board will drive a huge change towards no-till; it ought to but I'm not sure it would. The reason is highlighted in Knockie's report that all of this neighbours think him to be mentally deficient; in other words some people would rather sell up or go bust ploughing than admit that their cranky neighbour actually wasn't so crazy after all. I think, given the outline of the CAP reforms that we've seen, that a portion of the greening payments should be targeted toward conservation / regenerative (prefer this word) agriculture. That way the politicians can actually say that the CAP money is actually paying for a useful and beneficial service rendered to the public (might actually allow them to hit their 2020 targets which they'll otherwise probably fail to meet) rather than simply paying for my farm to buy its seventh plough even though none would do.

So, if you're wondering what to do with yourself before harvest and you believe that the influence of the individual is not precisely zero, you ought to bend the ear of your local NFU person, Natural England person etc. and try and prevent a bungling of the upcoming reforms.

Here endeth my Saturday rant.


Great post and it all make sense right up to the last sentence that suggests the NFU might actually do something to help us ! They are so ignorant that they are more likely to suggest a tax on no till farmers as we do not put so much money back into the industry !
 

chewdles

Member
Location
Wexford
Fieldspar that's a good post but may I suggest that CAP money could be linked to humus/OM % in soil. over a certain threshold gets full payment, under a certain threshold gets nothing and everything in between gets different grades of payment.Then it doesn't matter what type of farming system you are in- you just have to work in a way that sustains or improves humus levels on your farm to get full payment or is that too simple a way of looking at things.
 
Great post and it all make sense right up to the last sentence that suggests the NFU might actually do something to help us ! They are so ignorant that they are more likely to suggest a tax on no till farmers as we do not put so much money back into the industry !


I have almost no experience of the workings of the NFU so I'll take your word for it.

An alternative approach might be for people to pay more detailed attention to land when they buy or rent it and adjust the value according to things like SOM levels. To give a flavour of what I'm thinking about here's a sort of interesting and slightly relevant study that looks at this:

http://www.clw.csiro.au/publications/technical97/tr17-97.pdf

Certainly I can think of two farms that border onto our land. One has been direct drilled (but not no-tilled I hasten to add) for over 10 years and the fields are now flat, drain well and have been producing very good looking crops at a relatively low cost for the last few years. The second farm is conventionally tilled, with very little attention to drainage and hence often worked when wet and has generally fairly poor structure. I wonder if both farms were on the market at the same time how potential purchasers would value each bit of land? Certainly if I was looking to no-till both farms I'd have a much easier time with the first farm than the second and it would a lot cheaper process too.
 
Fieldspar that's a good post but may I suggest that CAP money could be linked to humus/OM % in soil. over a certain threshold gets full payment, under a certain threshold gets nothing and everything in between gets different grades of payment.Then it doesn't matter what type of farming system you are in- you just have to work in a way that sustains or improves humus levels on your farm to get full payment or is that too simple a way of looking at things.


Generally a good idea I think. Quite relevant to the valuing of land according to things like SOM that is discussed in the study above. I remember reading about policy based upon SOM levels and one challenge was to have a consistent and accurate way of measuring SOM levels.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
I think the more SOM is recognised as being the value of the soil the more I feel notil farmers might start to gain a competitive advantage when tendering for land and contract farming arrangements etc where switched on landlords realise that the guy offering the big ££ might come at a cost vs the notill guy who will actually improves rather than destroys his asset for him ?
 
I think the more SOM is recognised as being the value of the soil the more I feel notil farmers might start to gain a competitive advantage when tendering for land and contract farming arrangements etc where switched on landlords realise that the guy offering the big ££ might come at a cost vs the notill guy who will actually improves rather than destroys his asset for him ?


I agree but it will take a huge mindset shift. If you are a short term tenant it is not in your interest to improve an unpriced asset. Go for the highest profit up front before your time is up.

Again on this topic I was speaking to a farm manager who said he could not swap to no-till because his boss (the landlord) would not tolerate the increased variability of performance under no-till - i.e. in the years that no-till outperformed the old system there would be no comment but in the years where no-till did worse it would be unacceptable. This guy first and foremost wants to keep his job and to look after his family, no point sticking his neck out for no reward at all.

Same thing in the case of contractors - if it looks like they're doing bugger all (i.e. just turn up on one day, spray, drill and roll and then disappear with the field not looking visibly different at the end) and then the crop fails the landowner is likely to be much more annoyed, thinking that they didn't try hard enough, than if they've obviously been charging up and down every other day with various types of cultivation machines and so on. Intelligent management and planning behind the scenes doesn't earn as many brownie points as the landlord seeing some machine or other on their land.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
I agree but it will take a huge mindset shift. If you are a short term tenant it is not in your interest to improve an unpriced asset. Go for the highest profit up front before your time is up.

Again on this topic I was speaking to a farm manager who said he could not swap to no-till because his boss (the landlord) would not tolerate the increased variability of performance under no-till - i.e. in the years that no-till outperformed the old system there would be no comment but in the years where no-till did worse it would be unacceptable. This guy first and foremost wants to keep his job and to look after his family, no point sticking his neck out for no reward at all.

Same thing in the case of contractors - if it looks like they're doing bugger all (i.e. just turn up on one day, spray, drill and roll and then disappear) and then the crop fails the landowner is likely to be much more annoyed than if they've obviously been charging up and down every other day with various types of cultivation machines and so on. Intelligent management and planning behind the scenes doesn't earn as many brownie points as the landlord seeing some machine or other on their land.

I think we are starting to see a small change in landlord attitude already - potato growers are becoming quite widely recognised as not doing your soils any favours for example and I know several landowners who wouldn't have a root grower near their land

As SOM becomes a more used word I can see this becoming something that differentiates between combinable crop farmers

It's something I intend to use as a USP in future land and contract farming tenders
 
You sound like organic farmers. Hollier than thou. We are mixed farmers and clart fields with shite. Should we get anything?


I think that's where Chewdles idea would be better - that is, measure the desired end rather than the means to the end. Manure is likely to be a means to the desired end (says he who hasn't seen a cow for ages).
 

Chae1

Member
Location
Aberdeenshire
One of my reactions to the video was that the difference in the wider impact of a farmer who is destroying their soil and one is who actually improving it is really quite large. OK the differing levels of humus in the soil will impact on the individual farmer by directly affecting their profitability (as claimed in the video) but the destructive farmer does not pay the price for the wider impact she / he causes - that is, the effect on waterways, decline in nutritional quality of food, impact upon the climate, biodiversity and the usage of chemicals which adversely affect human health et cetera.

The above sounds like something an organic farmer would claim.


How can you say chemicals we are using adversely affect human health?
 
One of my reactions to the video was that the difference in the wider impact of a farmer who is destroying their soil and one is who actually improving it is really quite large. OK the differing levels of humus in the soil will impact on the individual farmer by directly affecting their profitability (as claimed in the video) but the destructive farmer does not pay the price for the wider impact she / he causes - that is, the effect on waterways, decline in nutritional quality of food, impact upon the climate, biodiversity and the usage of chemicals which adversely affect human health et cetera.

The above sounds like something an organic farmer would claim.


So what? Doesn't make it automatically false. I think the idea of cherry-picking the good bits from organic farming is a defensible position. I also think that a claim that one practice is more advantageous than another practice measured according to tangible parameters such as SOM is again defensible as the claim can be supported by evidence.
 

ianw

Member
Location
east yorkshire
I think the more SOM is recognised as being the value of the soil the more I feel notil farmers might start to gain a competitive advantage when tendering for land and contract farming arrangements etc where switched on landlords realise that the guy offering the big ££ might come at a cost vs the notill guy who will actually improves rather than destroys his asset for him ?
I can see the logic in what your saying ,but having similar thoughts to what's being mentioned in this thread in the sense of paying dd'rs a better environmental payment,but then I thought hang on even with lower input,higher gross margins etc is that not just a good excuse for land agents to actually increase rents?
 
Good luck saving the world. That's what you seem to believe you are doing. I m out.


Whilst it might seem that way, that is not actually what I believe. I do believe, however, that, all other things being equal, beneficial practices should be preferred to those that are not beneficial. I also believe that there is no point paying someone to make matters worse. Whilst we can debate what is beneficial, how you measure the benefit and whether or not a certain activity does or does not ameliorate the situation, I trust you think that those general beliefs are sensible.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
I have a feeling that cover crops will feature in these greening measure anyway - cover crops are relevant to all regardless of how you establish your crops so less of a change in thinking required for most to accept them as a good idea
 
Good luck saving the world. That's what you seem to believe you are doing. I m out.


On a more general philosophical point, in my opinion, the belief that the influence of the individual is precisely and always zero leads to apathetic fatalism bordering on paralytic solipsism which is an uninspiring malaise that is pretty prevalent at the moment. Just sayin'. :p

But also, as Clive says, if the bottom line says it's a good idea then that works for me too.
 
I have a feeling that cover crops will feature in these greening measure anyway - cover crops are relevant to all regardless of how you establish your crops so less of a change in thinking required for most to accept them as a good idea


I'm not old enough to have been alive but wasn't growing mustard before it was ploughed in quite a popular practice at one point. Why did it disappear?

Looking through the DSV catalogue there are mixes for potato and sugar beet growers, as well as for forage, so yes, something for everyone. What will be annoying is if you only get cover crop payments on light land as is the case in the new ELS IIRC. They need to recognise the benefits on low OM heavy soils with very bad structure.
 

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