NUM3 - Legume Fallow, now rotational

[Bangers&Mash]

Would that depend on when the AHL2 is established?

so AHL2 established in the spring, spray off end of Feb, drill with a NUM3 early March to follow by WW in the autumn?

 

[moretimeforgolf]

so AHL2 established in the spring, spray off end of Feb, drill with a NUM3 early March to follow by WW in the autumn?

I believe that it should be possible to meet the aims of both. Upon annual update at the end of year 1 I’ll see if the system allows it!

 

[Hornet]

Wheat
Barley
AHL2

as long as you could establish the ahl2 early enough to get winter seed but 12-14 weeks is a lot of growing in summer in my experience so it’s quite possible - the Ahl2 could potentially be broadcast to the standing crop even

i would destroy the AHL2 in spring and establish a summer cover (at my own cost) to provide a really good entry for the wheat

i ran it past a consultant in my free advice session and they thought it was ok

we have Ab9 on margins but not rotationaly

So why not:
Wheat 2022/3
Barley 2023/4
AHL2 sown summer 2024 (including legumes that would survive into the spring spring option of...
NUM3 sown spring 2025 (sow additional legumes to complement / patch up atuumn sown legumes)

Then back to:
Wheat 2025/26

Apart from RPA flagging up the options are incompatible on same parcel!
But what if SFI start date was at the end of Feb so AHL2 and NUM3 werent in same "SFI Year"?

 

[Hornet]

I believe that it should be possible to meet the aims of both. Upon annual update at the end of year 1 I’ll see if the system allows it!

It doesnt unfortunately
But what about if the start date is end of feb so NUM3 starts in the 2nd year? Would there be a conflict then?

 

[Badshot]

To fulfil the requirements of the option, a legume fallow must be established that produces flowering plants from late spring and during the summer months, including May, June, July and August.

Where are the actual months mentioned?

In the legume establishment guidance?

Or in the SFI handbook.

Remember, guidance is guidance not law.

 

[Hornet]

So you have these "thousands" of birds stuffing themselves now in Nov, I wonder what they will all be competing to eat next February in the snow when this "bird seed" disappears.

Disappointing that SFI hasnt embraced supplementary feeding. That does far more than sown plots imho

 

[Badshot]

As I suspected.

There's nothing saying months.

Indeed it clearly says it may be helpful to read the guidance but you do NOT have to follow it


I'll say it again.

Can the advisers please stop over complicating this scheme.

It's deliberately simple and flexible.

We're so used to everything having to be dictated to the last minutest detail we are now trying to make our own lives difficult and complicated

 

[Billboy1]

it’s feeding many thousands of birds right now - i think it’s exceptional value to the tax payer and feedback from many in our village has already confirmed that to me

Clive I’ll take issue with you and I’ll be doing ahl2 next year but calling it value for money for the tax payer is a stretch it’s actually a waste of taxpayer money but that’s not my problem

 

[Clive]

Clive I’ll take issue with you and I’ll be doing ahl2 next year but calling it value for money for the tax payer is a stretch it’s actually a waste of taxpayer money but that’s not my problem

subsidising wheat is better value for a tax payer ? how exactly ? wheat is a cheap global commodity that’s price is not set by uk farmers, subs name it no cheaper for anyone

we definitely have a lot more wild birds feeding here this winter and are using less inputs and that has value to environment without doubt

 

[Clive]

So why not:
Wheat 2022/3
Barley 2023/4
AHL2 sown summer 2024 (including legumes that would survive into the spring spring option of...
NUM3 sown spring 2025 (sow additional legumes to complement / patch up atuumn sown legumes)

Then back to:
Wheat 2025/26

Apart from RPA flagging up the options are incompatible on same parcel!
But what if SFI start date was at the end of Feb so AHL2 and NUM3 werent in same "SFI Year"?

the issue is you can’t have them on the same parcel ?

you could be smart with start date as you say however maybe but even then i don’t think
you will get both summer flowers aim AND winter bird feeding between winter barley and february ?

my start date will be feb so maybe this could be an option.

 

[Billboy1]

subsidising wheat is better value for a tax payer ? how exactly ? wheat is a cheap global commodity that’s price is not set by uk farmers, subs name it no cheaper for anyone

we definitely have a lot more wild birds feeding here this winter and are using less inputs and that has value to environment without doubt

I’ll agree to disagree with that

 

[Hornet]

Isn't it more the case that because the government have made such a mess of it Defra are for now playing down any penalties or rules if you get it wrong to simply try & encourage more farmers to sign up, this may of course not be the case after a change of government next year & back dated penalties could very easily be reinstated.

No it has always been the aim of any new scheme to be light handed and non prescriptive, because thats what farmers wanted in the consultation

 

[Hornet]

So you have these "thousands" of birds stuffing themselves now in Nov, I wonder what they will all be competing to eat next February in the snow when this "bird seed" disappears

This is where SFI has dropped the ball! No supplementary feeding option when the sown bird food has gone

 

[Clive]

So why not:
Wheat 2022/3
Barley 2023/4
AHL2 sown summer 2024 (including legumes that would survive into the spring spring option of...
NUM3 sown spring 2025 (sow additional legumes to complement / patch up atuumn sown legumes)

Then back to:
Wheat 2025/26

Apart from RPA flagging up the options are incompatible on same parcel!
But what if SFI start date was at the end of Feb so AHL2 and NUM3 werent in same "SFI Year"?

more i think about this the more i think you maybe onto something here ! aims could be met and parcels rotated with a feb start date to avoid double funding

would be great if defra would confirm if acceptable or not however

 

[Badshot]

I would have liked to do the multi species cover, followed by spring sown legume fallow, but the system says no go.

One of the biggest issues with any of these options will be cereal volunteers carrying over reducing the effectiveness of the break.

 

[Hornet]

the issue is you can’t have them on the same parcel ?

you could be smart with start date as you say however maybe but even then i don’t think
you will get both summer flowers aim AND winter bird feeding between winter barley and february ?

my start date will be feb so maybe this could be an option.

Perhaps broadcast AHL2 seed into the standing cereal crop in June? Cut cereals high at harvest. gives possibility of flowering species in summer.

Legumes mixed into the AHL2 mix survive into the spring (even with a dose of glyphosate?) and are then well established (in theory) to flower in the summer to satisfy NUM3?

As long as start date is say feb / march so AHL2 and NUM3 arent in same SFI financial year


Is there anything that says you cant plant an NUM3 and AHL2 mix at the same time?

OR

forget the NUM3 and DD say oats (with a surviving legume companion?) so you still get 3 paying "crops" in 2 cropping years

more i think about this the more i think you maybe onto something here ! aims could be met and parcels rotated with a feb start date to avoid double funding

would be great if defra would confirm if acceptable or not however

The issue for me is if DEFRA want us to take up NUM3, AHL2 or even SAM2, it has to fit in with a cereals rotation.

Even if AHL2 was sown straight after w barley, and you can meet the action's aims re flowering and seed, you still have circa 6-7 months afterwards, where DDing a spring break crop is fraught with risk on clay soils, especially if we cant spray the AHL2 off early?

Ideally a spring/summer fallow Action would fit in nicely afterwards, and perhaps thats in the pipeline, but defra havent thought through how things "fit" with our core business: growing cereals, nor the risk involved.

If AHL2 couldn't meet the action's aims by sowing straight after say w barley, to be able to do AHL2, the business is then sacrificing two years of cash cropping for £732/ha (or £366/yr!) to sow in the spring after a cereal, and leave in ground till feb.

SAM2 isnt even a compatible action sown in the autumn if you want to sow AHL2 in the spring!! Let alone the risk in not meeting aims if NUM3 sown in the spring doesnt flower at a reasonable time to meet the action's aims.

They have got to wake up and smell the coffee. These actions could be VERY popular, but they wont be unless the rules re supposed double funding or the actions aims are relaxed, and we are able to think out of the box to fit these actions our businesses

 

[Clive]

Perhaps broadcast AHL2 seed into the standing cereal crop in June? Cut cereals high at harvest. gives possibility of flowering species in summer.

Legumes mixed into the AHL2 mix survive into the spring (even with a dose of glyphosate?) and are then well established (in theory) to flower in the summer to satisfy NUM3?

As long as start date is say feb / march so AHL2 and NUM3 arent in same SFI financial year


Is there anything that says you cant plant an NUM3 and AHL2 mix at the same time?

OR

forget the NUM3 and DD say oats (with a surviving legume companion?) so you still get 3 paying "crops" in 2 cropping years

The issue for me is if DEFRA want us to take up NUM3, AHL2 or even SAM2, it has to fit in with a cereals rotation.

Even if AHL2 was sown straight after w barley, and you can meet the action's aims re flowering and seed, you still have circa 6-7 months afterwards, where DDing a spring break crop is fraught with risk on clay soils, especially if we cant spray the AHL2 off early?

Ideally a spring/summer fallow Action would fit in nicely afterwards, and perhaps thats in the pipeline, but defra havent thought through how things "fit" with our core business: growing cereals, nor the risk involved.

If AHL2 couldn't meet the action's aims by sowing straight after say w barley, to be able to do AHL2, the business is then sacrificing two years of cash cropping for £732/ha (or £366/yr!) to sow in the spring after a cereal, and leave in ground till feb.

SAM2 isnt even a compatible action sown in the autumn if you want to sow AHL2 in the spring!! Let alone the risk in not meeting aims if NUM3 sown in the spring doesnt flower at a reasonable time to meet the action's aims.

They have got to wake up and smell the coffee. These actions could be VERY popular, but they wont be unless the rules re supposed double funding or the actions aims are relaxed, and we are able to think out of the box to fit these actions our businesses

i think the last sentence is key - i think they do want us to think outside the box and not be prescriptive

it would be really useful to be able to run a plan past a defra inspector however to see if it’s acceptable or not though

when i add up just how much i can get sfi to pay if i push my “out the box” thinking i can’t help but feel they might think it’s pushing too far !

 

[James Ream]

i think the last sentence is key - i think they do want us to think outside the box and not be prescriptive

it would be really useful to be able to run a plan past a defra inspector however to see if it’s acceptable or not though

when i add up just how much i can get sfi to pay if i push my “out the box” thinking i can’t help but feel they might think it’s pushing too far !

What are your thoughts on getting clarification on this? I have just spoken to a brilliant advisor on the RPA helpline, seemed very knowledgable and clued up on the scheme as a whole. He could see no reason why the following wasnt possible with a Feb start date and a 3 year rotation consisting of Wheat, Barley, AHL2 and NUM3.
AHL2 as an Autumn rotational option and NUM3 as a spring rotational option.

Example: Num3, Wheat, Barley, AHL2
AHL2, Wheat, Barley, Num3
Barley, AHL2, Num3, Wheat

 

[Clive]

What are your thoughts on getting clarification on this? I have just spoken to a brilliant advisor on the RPA helpline, seemed very knowledgable and clued up on the scheme as a whole. He could see no reason why the following wasnt possible with a Feb start date and a 3 year rotation consisting of Wheat, Barley, AHL2 and NUM3.
AHL2 as an Autumn rotational option and NUM3 as a spring rotational option.

Example: Num3, Wheat, Barley, AHL2
AHL2, Wheat, Barley, Num3
Barley, AHL2, Num3, Wheat

i can’t see any reason in the standards that stop this BUT it would be nice to have it confirmed officially wouldn’t it - quoting a conversation with an advisor on a help line probably wouldn’t help a future inspection

 

[James Ream]

i can’t see any reason in the standards that stop this BUT it would be nice to have it confirmed officially wouldn’t it - quoting a conversation with an advisor on a help line probably wouldn’t help a future inspection

Agreed! But how do we get it confirmed?