One rule for the grain merchant and another for the farmer ....

[bankrupt]

i thought Sillcocks were absorbed by BOCM and that Spillers went with Dalgety.

You're absolutely right - I was getting confused.

Dalgety bought Spillers in 1979, which was before they bought RHM, including Fulford Trumps, in 1983.

Meanwhile, BOCM had merged with Silcock and Lever in 1969.

Harrisons and Crosfield bought Pauls in 1984, forming BOCM Pauls in 1992.

 

[Condi]

Frontier, ADM and Gleadall - all BIG international blue chip companies that i'm pretty sure are good for the money

All of ADM Direct, Gleadell UK, and Frontier are UK companies, and could do bust without their parent companies going under. You've also not mentioned Glencore, who are as big as any of those, and Openfield who are one of the biggest operators in the UK and second only to Frontier in terms of turnover and procurement. They also have a fully insured model, which non of the other companies operate.

Openfield especially, was set up so that the growers money is always protected by insurance, even if the trading arm goes under all the purchases are protected. I dont think there are any other companies in the world which have that level of protection.

 

[Clive]

All of ADM Direct, Gleadell UK, and Frontier are UK companies, and could do bust without their parent companies going under. You've also not mentioned Glencore, who are as big as any of those, and Openfield who are one of the biggest operators in the UK and second only to Frontier in terms of turnover and procurement. They also have a fully insured model, which non of the other companies operate.

Openfield especially, was set up so that the growers money is always protected by insurance, even if the trading arm goes under all the purchases are protected. I dont think there are any other companies in the world which have that level of protection.

I can't really see the 3 I mentioned going anywhere frankly, their backing is unequaled especially in he case of Cargill and ADM

as for one of the others you mention above ........... no thanks !!

 

[Condi]

as for one of the others you mention above ........... no thanks !!

Other than 'I dont think so' or 'I dont want to' can you explain that please?

Considering you can get £3m+ credit insurance on all of them I mention, do you know something the credit agencies dont or is it an unfounded opinion about their ability to pay?

Just be a bit careful what you say, the system needs confidence otherwise people wont trade. Its already been a problem I understand for local merchants after Wellgrain, and in all of those cases so far its totally unfounded. I suggest, as I did back on the Wellgrain thread, if farmers took out credit insurance in the same way merchants take out credit insurance, this discussion wouldnt happen and you'd let the credit insurers take the risk.

 

[Clive]

Other than 'I dont think so' or 'I dont want to' can you explain that please?

Considering you can get £3m+ credit insurance on all of them I mention, do you know something the credit agencies dont or is it an unfounded opinion about their ability to pay?

Just be a bit careful what you say, the system needs confidence otherwise people wont trade. Its already been a problem I understand for local merchants after Wellgrain, and in all of those cases so far its totally unfounded. I suggest, as I did back on the Wellgrain thread, if farmers took out credit insurance in the same way merchants take out credit insurance, this discussion wouldnt happen and you'd let the credit insurers take the risk.

I "could" explain that but I don't want to spend time in court thanks

there are rumours, maybe rubbish but thats enough for me to avoid some merchants, I'm quite happy using the big 3 that I do and they are the only ones I am confident to offer what can often be well over 100k credit at times


why have the expense of credit insurance when you can simply deal with companies that are VERY unlikely to go bust ?

 

[Condi]

I "could" explain that but I don't want to spend time in court thanks

there are rumours, maybe rubbish but thats enough for me to avoid some merchants, I'm quite happy using the big 3 that I do and they are the only ones I am confident to offer what can often be well over 100k credit at times

why have the expense of credit insurance when you can simply deal with companies that are VERY unlikely to go bust ?

I wish you knew half as much as you think you know, sometimes. For the sake of entertainment, why not elaborate on those rumours? I'd bet you a tenner they're bulls**t. Rumours, especially unfounded ones, are not very helpful to anyone.

Glencore Agriculture are worth about $6bn worldwide. Are part owned by 2 Canadian pension funds, and the rest by Glencore PLC - market cap of $42bn. VERY unlikely to go bust, they have one of the biggest asset bases in the agriculture world.

Openfield have a system of 2 companies, and if you sell as a member then everything you sell is automatically credit insured at no cost to the grower due to the way the companies trade between themselves. Also have a large asset base in the UK. Even if the trading arm goes bust, the arm you sell to wont so pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to lose your money.

 

[Clive]

I wish you knew half as much as you think you know, sometimes. For the sake of entertainment, why not elaborate on those rumours? I'd bet you a tenner they're bullpoo. Rumours, especially unfounded ones, are not very helpful to anyone.

Glencore Agriculture are worth about $6bn worldwide. Are part owned by 2 Canadian pension funds, and the rest by Glencore PLC - market cap of $42bn. VERY unlikely to go bust, they have one of the biggest asset bases in the agriculture world.

Openfield have a system of 2 companies, and if you sell as a member then everything you sell is automatically credit insured at no cost to the grower due to the way the companies trade between themselves. Also have a large asset base in the UK. Even if the trading arm goes bust, the arm you sell to wont so pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to lose your money.

because fighting legal action,is not entertaining ? I have heard rumours, I'm probably not alone, I'm not saying about who because I'm not stupid and understand that a rumour is just that and no more than, I agree they are unhelpful and often do turn out to be bullpoo but I don't take risks I don't need to

Just accept, I'm quite happy I can get as good a price from the 3 big guys I deal with and who I feel secure in giving credit to - why do I need to look beyond them or take unnecessary risk ?

 

[Condi]

Just accept, I'm quite happy I can get as good a price from the 3 big guys I deal with and who I feel secure in giving credit to - why do I need to look beyond them or take unnecessary risk ?

Because says such things on a public forum - which you admit are likely bulls**t - is just about as damaging as repeating the rumours themselves. From someone who works in the trade, day in and day out, I can tell you they're rubbish. The danger is that other people listen to you, who are talking out your arse, and confidence in the other companies makes it harder for them to buy grain off farm.

Better to say nothing, than insinuate things you cant back up.

 

[Clive]

Because says such things on a public forum - which you admit are likely bullpoo - is just about as damaging as repeating the rumours themselves. From someone who works in the trade, day in and day out, I can tell you they're rubbish. The danger is that other people listen to you, who are talking out your arse, and confidence in the other companies makes it harder for them to buy grain off farm.

Better to say nothing, than insinuate things you cant back up.

I have (quite purposely) said nothing specific about anyone despite your best efforts and encouragement to get me to

all I'm saying is I choose carefully who I trade with, the 3 big merchants I will give significant credit to is plenty good enough for me so why would I take risk or look beyond that.

Farming history is littered with bust grain merchants leaving farmers in the shite, its happened before and with doubtless happen again

are you a farmer or grain trader ?

 

[Condi]

all Im saying is I choose carefully who I choose to trade with, the 3 big merchants I will give significant credit to is plenty good enough for me so why would I take risk or look beyond that

Because you're insinuating that anyone other than the 3 merchants you mention (who ironically arnt the biggest 3 merchants in the UK despite what you say), arnt worthy of credit and trust. Which is damaging to any other merchants.

 

[Clive]

Because you're insinuating that anyone other than the 3 merchants you mention (who ironically arnt the biggest 3 merchants in the UK despite what you say), arnt worthy of credit and trust. Which is damaging to any other merchants.

I believe ADM and Cargill would be the biggest by fair margin globally ? certainly significantly bigger than the merchants you have mentioned surely ?

 

[Renaultman]

I know malting barley tests can be a bit "subjective" at times. But it sounds like the situation got out of control quickly. Why was the buyer in your kitchen, was he summoned? You say your Dad hit the roof, and the rep swore. This sounds like both parties were at loggerheads with each other. You say the company wouldn't "Back Down", but without all the facts, could it not be possible the company had no reason to back down?

100K in the ag world could result in a margin, before costs of £1000, so might not be any fat left in the deal to pay you your loss.

As my dear old friend Gordon English (anyone remember him?) used to say, "Don't fall out with folk, because you'll never be able to get even with them later", it's a good saying for farmers and merchants alike.

Lovely bloke RIP. Bloody hard to haul for but a pleasure in the same breath.

 

[capt.spiffing]

All of ADM Direct, Gleadell UK, and Frontier are UK companies, and could do bust without their parent companies going under. You've also not mentioned Glencore, who are as big as any of those, and Openfield who are one of the biggest operators in the UK and second only to Frontier in terms of turnover and procurement. They also have a fully insured model, which non of the other companies operate.

Openfield especially, was set up so that the growers money is always protected by insurance, even if the trading arm goes under all the purchases are protected. I dont think there are any other companies in the world which have that level of protection.

not speaking for anyone other than myself, but smaller companies have insurance to...a substantial amount for us to pay but safer to do so then end up in the heap like many others!...just because a company has large turnover, its doesnt mean they are financially sound!

 

[bankrupt]

Openfield have a system of 2 companies, and if you sell as a member then everything you sell is automatically credit insured at no cost to the grower due to the way the companies trade between themselves. Also have a large asset base in the UK. Even if the trading arm goes bust, the arm you sell to wont so pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to lose your money.

Apparently, this advantage may cost us all an extra 50p/t from 01/07/17.

"The boards of both Societies have decided that, in view of their understanding that no other marketing organization provides insurance cover on itself, it is no longer appropriate for us to do so . . . members may elect to have such cover at a cost of 50p/tonne."

It's rather worrying that their insurers seem to put the risk of failure quite so high.

 

[Days of thunder]

Clive is always right he knows everything, trust in God.

 

[richard hammond]

not speaking for anyone other than myself, but smaller companies have insurance to...a substantial amount for us to pay but safer to do so then end up in the heap like many others!...just because a company has large turnover, its doesnt mean they are financially sound!

I sell a fair bit obo of my clients to a small local merchant in Lincolnshire and I enjoy the ability of being able to talk to "the chap" I sold too if there is a problem, we always resolve any differences very quickly,

 

[Condi]

Apparently, this advantage may cost us all an extra 50p/t from 01/07/17.

"The boards of both Societies have decided that, in view of their understanding that no other marketing organization provides insurance cover on itself, it is no longer appropriate for us to do so . . . members may elect to have such cover at a cost of 50p/tonne."

It's rather worrying that their insurers seem to put the risk of failure quite so high.

Is it a high price? For a tonne of OSR at 320 quid that 50p is 0.15% of the value of what you're insuring. Bearing in mind that for car insurance, for example, if you pay 500 quid a year for a 10k car that's 5% of the value, the credit insurance on openfield is 33 times cheaper, aka 33 times less risk than writing your car off.

I would look at things in perspective before saying it's expensive. How about getting a credit insurance quote for other merchants and see if they cost more or less?

 

[Condi]

not speaking for anyone other than myself, but smaller companies have insurance to...a substantial amount for us to pay but safer to do so then end up in the heap like many others!...just because a company has large turnover, its doesnt mean they are financially sound!

Some companies charge the farmer for the merchants credit insurance. This is 100% not the same as protecting YOUR sales to the merchant. I would check what you're paying for...

 

[bankrupt]

33 times less risk than writing your car off.

But 3 times more risk than my house burning down.

 

[Condi]

But 3 times more risk than my house burning down.

Yes. But you dont have a clue how expensive it is, or not, because you've not got a quote for any other companies.

Thats like saying your £500 for car insurance is expensive, without knowing if insuring a different car would be £50 or £5000. One number, on its own, means nothing.