Overseeding

[som farmer]

Oh it does depend on the rest of the ley.

Cutting Chicory when it's ready would be detrimental to later maturing plants. Then it's about compromises

we cut it when the grass is at 'best' stage, chicory still comes back, but you cannot see it in the silage pit. We aim for quality silage.

 

[som farmer]

Another long post, but completely missed the point about the actual weed you are concerned about controlling

well, tell us how to control docks and thistles in those leys ?

l put what we do, so someone might give us an alternative.

cows eating the docks, is just an interesting point.

 

[Sid]

we cut it when the grass is at 'best' stage, chicory still comes back, but you cannot see it in the silage pit. We aim for quality silage.

Chicory I saw in a cutting sward was like a dock,a lot of tough stem that was unedible and rejected in the trough

 

[Sid]

well, tell us how to control docks and thistles in those leys ?

l put what we do, so someone might give us an alternative.

cows eating the docks, is just an interesting point.

Docks, top and graze or Summer fallow and dry roots out. But that will also kill the Chicory

Thistles, spot spray, top or dig.

Depending on which Thistles it is.

 

[som farmer]

Chicory I saw in a cutting sward was like a dock,a lot of tough stem that was unedible and rejected in the trough

cut when still leafy. Grass would be well past its best, if we waited for the chicory to bolt.

the best use of bolted chicory, is to top off, and allow it to decompose, on the surface, thereby allowing the minerals stored in it, from deep down, to transfer to the top soil.

 

[Sid]

cut when still leafy. Grass would be well past its best, if we waited for the chicory to bolt.

the best use of bolted chicory, is to top off, and allow it to decompose, on the surface, thereby allowing the minerals stored in it, from deep down, to transfer to the top soil.

So your saying grass reaches maturity before Chicory.

Docks at the right stage would be same as Bolted Chicory then.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

the biggest problem with the herbal/diverse leys, is weed control, l don't think there's a spray available, would love to be corrected on that.

At present, we glyphosate pre DD. In theory, by DD'ing we should only disturb the very top bit of soil, thereby not bringing weed seeds to the surface, to plague us.

Doesn't seem to work that well, annual weeds are easy, just top them off, but not for docks and thistles.

Or, we can glyphosate, DD with grass, spray with pas+tor, or something similar, and add the 'extras' after.

Over seeding is most successful drilling into an open sward, as we all know. So over seeding into a vigorous grass ley, isn't perhaps the ideal, but the best we can do.

One thing l have been surprised at, since including herbs, the cows will happily eat docks, even the seeds, you just get left with brown stalks. That's a double edged sword, dock seeds pass through the cow, and over seed themselves, complete with a growth medium, shite.

Anything else, is just regular topping, to tidy up, or spot spraying.

So, what advice does our resident agronomist, @ollie989898 or someone else, think is the 'ideal' way to get a clean(ish) diverse/herbal ley ?

We 'farm' two bits of land, and have done for 25+ years, cut only, no fert, and free, over that period of time, we have seen the weeds increase, then decrease, naturally, to a point where you could say its 'clean', yield followed the same curve, 1 smallish cut, to now we get 2 or 3 reasonable cuts.

Just not keen on going through the same weed curve, in the leys.

The new spray coming out next year is OK on Chicory and White Clover, but does hit the Red Clover and Plantain ,so not ideal. Envy will not hit plantain , but the white clover does come back slowly but not the Chicory. So I suppose there is nothing that's ideal
What I do here is sow Italian or Westerwolds, deal with all the weeds with an effective spray then overseed herbs and Clovers the following year when its starting to thin out
And to answer the comments on here about cutting Chicory
Like I said before I cut mine 3 times a year , it grows like a weed here ,nothing seems to stop it

 

[Derrick Hughes]

One of these is coated seed , please ignore the weeds
Both Perennial Ryegras sown on the same day , no firtlizer applied
Same seed rate

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Oh it does depend on the rest of the ley.

Cutting Chicory when it's ready would be detrimental to later maturing plants. Then it's about compromises

And what we think is "ready"!

We've been running some 6-month recovery trials purely out of curiosity, well partly because I like to keep ahold of my money instead of set it on fire.
You can see the classic signs of no rain and no fertiliser in the attached photo?

But you can also see where these weed problems come from - the "we are so scared of having grass cover" problem, because of the spending problems and cost runaways that go along with risky business.

It's comical how the people in the business of growing grass to graze are so scared of having it, that they choose to have weeds and droughts instead.

 

[som farmer]

So your saying grass reaches maturity before Chicory.

Docks at the right stage would be same as Bolted Chicory then.

maturity ?
what l said, was ideal stage, for us, and multicut, that's well before 'mature' stage, and well before the majority of chicory bolts, and if a little bit does, so what.

our multicut so far, is averaging 15% pr and 11.5 me, which is what l said about quality.

Dock leaf's if young and fresh, av 25% pr, and while l hate the bloody things, they are not complete rubbish. Just wish the cows would eat the stems as well. But l will agree, in grazing ground chicory has a tendency to bolt. Even then, if topped, it transfers minerals to the topsoil, from deep down, it could be the same for docks.

But you were talking about silage, not grazing.

 

[som farmer]

The new spray coming out next year is OK on Chicory and White Clover, but does hit the Red Clover and Plantain ,so not ideal. Envy will not hit plantain , but the white clover does come back slowly but not the Chicory. So I suppose there is nothing that's ideal
What I do here is sow Italian or Westerwolds, deal with all the weeds with an effective spray then overseed herbs and Clovers the following year when its starting to thin out
And to answer the comments on here about cutting Chicory
Like I said before I cut mine 3 times a year , it grows like a weed here ,nothing seems to stop it

the only trouble there, is no clover in the W/W/IRG leys.

although we are experimenting with annual clovers in those short term leys.

the basic answer, there's no magic answer to control weeds in the herbal leys, bugger. !

 

[Derrick Hughes]

The new Clover Safe
No 1is Envy
No 2 the new Clover Safe
3rd is control no spray

 

[Kevtherev]

One of these is coated seed , please ignore the weeds
Both Perennial Ryegras sown on the same day , no firtlizer applied
Same seed rate
View attachment 1127716View attachment 1127717

Coated with?

 

[ollie989898]

the biggest problem with the herbal/diverse leys, is weed control, l don't think there's a spray available, would love to be corrected on that.

At present, we glyphosate pre DD. In theory, by DD'ing we should only disturb the very top bit of soil, thereby not bringing weed seeds to the surface, to plague us.

Doesn't seem to work that well, annual weeds are easy, just top them off, but not for docks and thistles.

Or, we can glyphosate, DD with grass, spray with pas+tor, or something similar, and add the 'extras' after.

Over seeding is most successful drilling into an open sward, as we all know. So over seeding into a vigorous grass ley, isn't perhaps the ideal, but the best we can do.

One thing l have been surprised at, since including herbs, the cows will happily eat docks, even the seeds, you just get left with brown stalks. That's a double edged sword, dock seeds pass through the cow, and over seed themselves, complete with a growth medium, shite.

Anything else, is just regular topping, to tidy up, or spot spraying.

So, what advice does our resident agronomist, @ollie989898 or someone else, think is the 'ideal' way to get a clean(ish) diverse/herbal ley ?

We 'farm' two bits of land, and have done for 25+ years, cut only, no fert, and free, over that period of time, we have seen the weeds increase, then decrease, naturally, to a point where you could say its 'clean', yield followed the same curve, 1 smallish cut, to now we get 2 or 3 reasonable cuts.

Just not keen on going through the same weed curve, in the leys.

Grow grass, not trash would be my advice.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Coated with?

I bought coated seed
It don't prove anything only in that on my soil, in those conditions, coated seed was slower that standard perenial Ryegrass Seed, or deffo no faster and to get the same cover you would need to up the seed rate

 

[Thomasgf]

The new Clover Safe
No 1is Envy
No 2 the new Clover Safe
3rd is control no spray
View attachment 1127734View attachment 1127733View attachment 1127735

Hi Derrick, great photos! Is this a trial you visited?

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Hi Derrick, great photos! Is this a trial you visited?

Hi , the trails are here , I can take anyone around if they would like to see them
The potatoe trials have been on going for 20 years

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Hello @Sid
Old pasture seeded last back end
AstonEnergy Perennial
Ryegrass

 

[belac]

Hello @Sid
Old pasture seeded last back end
AstonEnergy Perennial
Ryegrass
View attachment 1160654

Is that a new variety?. Can you still get Mel?, I put some in 40 years ago, its still good now

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Is that a new variety?. Can you still get Mel?, I put some in 40 years ago, its still good now

Dad used to sell a lot of Melle
Melle + 1 kg of Timothy and 1 kg White Clover


Toddington would be the new eqivalent
Do you remember s23 another fanastic

grass in its day
AstonEnergy has been out for a while , getting fantasic MEs in the silage with it
We use it mainly for oveseeding silage fields and mixing in Herbal stuff ,germinates quick

The dry matter and crude protein production of the perennial ryegrass varieties S24, S23, Premo, Houba, Barlenna, Melle and Sceempter Pasture at annual nitrogen application rates of 212, 425, 637 and 1062 kg ha−1 were studied for the years 1972–74 inclusive. The DM and CP response curves for the variety Melle were steeper than those for other varieties tested and levelled off at a higher N application rate. The results suggest that Melle is a variety with a genotype capahle of utilizing N more efficiently at higher rates than the other varieties tested.