Performance recorded, grass fed NC Cheviot rams

[exmoorromney]

Where is the best place to find North Country Cheviot rams that are grass fed only and performance recorded? Can anyone recommend the best breeders to talk to? Also are North Country hill and Lairg cheviots the same thing? Thanks.

 

[Woolless]

AHDB/Signet should have list of recording breeders. Last time I looked there were Cheviot breeders on it but not many.

 

[Sheepfog]

Where is the best place to find North Country Cheviot rams that are grass fed only and performance recorded? Can anyone recommend the best breeders to talk to? Also are North Country hill and Lairg cheviots the same thing? Thanks.

Yes they are. But beware, "Hill Cheviots" are South Country Cheviots.

Innovis have tups available now I think. Plus check the AHDB website as @Woolless suggests.

 

[Agrivator]

The desired traits in a North Country Cheviot are the traits which can't be measured quantitatively. And anyone who performance tests North Country Cheviot Rams probably doesn't understand the breed and may well unwittingly select against the very traits which the breed is famous for - longevity, thriftiness, not too heavy-boned, good tight skinned, and ability to produce good wether lambs sought after by feeders and butchers.

If you want to get some idea of sellers and prices, just Google ''Lockerbie Cheviot sales''. There are a number of types and some breeders have both South Country Cheviots, and the bigger Lairg or North Country Hill Cheviots. There's a bit of overlap and sometimes it's not easy to be sure which is which, but avoid the big Park Cheviots found mainly in Caithness.

There will be respected breeders much nearer you, but Harrison and Hetherington of Carlisle (who run Lockerbie sales) can be trusted to provide whatever advice or assistance you want. As can the secretary of the NCC Society.

 

[Agrivator]

Yes they are. But beware, "Hill Cheviots" are South Country Cheviots.

Innovis have tups available now I think. Plus check the AHDB website as @Woolless suggests.

Hill Cheviots refer more to North Country Cheviots. They were developed mainly in Sutherland from the smaller South Country Cheviots (Southies) from the Border Hills. About 30 years ago, NCC tups (or Northies) were brought down to the Borders from the Lairg sales, and much to the dismay of many traditionalists, were put over Southies. It was regarded as sacrilege, but it is now difficult to find a flock of Southies which hasn't had an infusion of Northies.

To add to the confusion, there is another ''Lockerbie'' type of Southie, with horned rams. These, along with traditional Southies and Lairg-type Northies are also sold at the Lockerbie sales.

 

[Sheepfog]

Hill Cheviots refer more to North Country Cheviots. They were developed mainly in Sutherland from the smaller South Country Cheviots (Southies) from the Border Hills. About 30 years ago, NCC tups (or Northies) were brought down to the Borders from the Lairg sales, and much to the dismay of many traditionalists, were put over Southies. It was regarded as sacrilege, but it is now difficult to find a flock of Southies which hasn't had an infusion of Northies.

To add to the confusion, there is another ''Lockerbie'' type of Southie, with horned rams. These, along with traditional Southies and Lairg-type Northies are also sold at the Lockerbie sales.

Thank you for the clarification! I was going by Longtown sales reports which used to refer to Southies as Hill Cheviots IIRC.

 

[exmoorromney]

Yes they are. But beware, "Hill Cheviots" are South Country Cheviots.

Innovis have tups available now I think. Plus check the AHDB website as @Woolless suggests.

Yep I've been in touch with Innovis, was just seeing if anyone else bred all grass reared rams with some recording.

 

[exmoorromney]

The desired traits in a North Country Cheviot are the traits which can't be measured quantitatively. And anyone who performance tests North Country Cheviot Rams probably doesn't understand the breed and may well unwittingly select against the very traits which the breed is famous for - longevity, thriftiness, not too heavy-boned, good tight skinned, and ability to produce good wether lambs sought after by feeders and butchers.

If you want to get some idea of sellers and prices, just Google ''Lockerbie Cheviot sales''. There are a number of types and some breeders have both South Country Cheviots, and the bigger Lairg or North Country Hill Cheviots. There's a bit of overlap and sometimes it's not easy to be sure which is which, but avoid the big Park Cheviots found mainly in Caithness.

There will be respected breeders much nearer you, but Harrison and Hetherington of Carlisle (who run Lockerbie sales) can be trusted to provide whatever advice or assistance you want. As can the secretary of the NCC Society.

The rams aren't for me, they are for a friend who wants to Stabilise his mixed breed flock with nc cheviots. His Dad usually buys a mixed bag of rams from a dealer, and they just get whatever turns up. I said I would look into helping him find what hes after. I want to find him some good grass reared only cheviot rams, some recording for maternal traits would be a bonus. I don't want to be buying rams from sales where they have more than likely been stuffed full of cake or pampered in a shed because the lambs or ewes certainly wont be treated like that. Just thought someone on here may be able to put me in touch with a good ram breeder.

 

[Woolless]

The desired traits in a North Country Cheviot are the traits which can't be measured quantitatively. And anyone who performance tests North Country Cheviot Rams probably doesn't understand the breed and may well unwittingly select against the very traits which the breed is famous for - longevity, thriftiness, not too heavy-boned, good tight skinned, and ability to produce good wether lambs sought after by feeders and butchers.

If you want to get some idea of sellers and prices, just Google ''Lockerbie Cheviot sales''. There are a number of types and some breeders have both South Country Cheviots, and the bigger Lairg or North Country Hill Cheviots. There's a bit of overlap and sometimes it's not easy to be sure which is which, but avoid the big Park Cheviots found mainly in Caithness.

There will be respected breeders much nearer you, but Harrison and Hetherington of Carlisle (who run Lockerbie sales) can be trusted to provi

 

[Woolless]

The desired traits in a North Country Cheviot are the traits which can't be measured quantitatively. And anyone who performance tests North Country Cheviot Rams probably doesn't understand the breed and may well unwittingly select against the very traits which the breed is famous for - longevity, thriftiness, not too heavy-boned, good tight skinned, and ability to produce good wether lambs sought after by feeders and butchers.

If you want to get some idea of sellers and prices, just Google ''Lockerbie Cheviot sales''. There are a number of types and some breeders have both South Country Cheviots, and the bigger Lairg or North Country Hill Cheviots. There's a bit of overlap and sometimes it's not easy to be sure which is which, but avoid the big Park Cheviots found mainly in Caithness.

There will be respected breeders much nearer you, but Harrison and Hetherington of Carlisle (who run Lockerbie sales) can be trusted to provide whatever advice or assistance you want. As can the secretary of the NCC Society.

Nothing to stop a capable breeder keeping the desirable traits which you list and performance record his Cheviots in a commercial system. As the base of the stratification system, this should be encouraged in the hill breeds as it would help the whole industry. It's nonsense to say that you can only do one and not the other.

 

[MDL POWERUP]

You'd be best off looking for a cheviot (northy if you want lambs away faster) that are on a hard hill. I got some ewe lambs from a very hard hill and they were park type! They fatten off poor grass better than some I bought out of the lockerbie sale. I struggle to see how a true hill flock can record accurately.

Nothing to stop a capable breeder keeping the desirable traits which you list and performance record his Cheviots in a commercial system. As the base of the stratification system, this should be encouraged in the hill breeds as it would help the whole industry. It's nonsense to say that you can only do one and not the other.

If you've got a few Hundred Cheviots on a hill that lamb outside how are you going to catch them at 8 week old and match them up with their dam and accuratley know which tup sired which lamb. It's bad enough catching a cheviot on flat ground so you would have to gather. In practical terms no hill farmer is going to want to adopt a signet system. The ones that do record I would like to know how hard their land is...

 

[Woolless]

You'd be best off looking for a cheviot (northy if you want lambs away faster) that are on a hard hill. I got some ewe lambs from a very hard hill and they were park type! They fatten off poor grass better than some I bought out of the lockerbie sale. I struggle to see how a true hill flock can record accurately.

If you've got a few Hundred Cheviots on a hill that lamb outside how are you going to catch them at 8 week old and match them up with their dam and accuratley know which tup sired which lamb. It's bad enough catching a cheviot on flat ground so you would have to gather. In practical terms no hill farmer is going to want to adopt a signet system. The ones that do record I would like to know how hard their land is...

In that situation, you wouldn't want to record hundreds. Boil the flock down to a manageable number and record them in a hill park or similar. Once lambed they can go back to the hill or wherever and other weights taken when it fits with clipping etc. I record outside and tag lambs at about 12 hours old. DNA testing will eventually be a massive help when the cost comes down.

Obviously, recording is not for every flock nor does it need to be. But somebody has to do it if the benefits are to be reaped.

 

[exmoorromney]

You'd be best off looking for a cheviot (northy if you want lambs away faster) that are on a hard hill. I got some ewe lambs from a very hard hill and they were park type! They fatten off poor grass better than some I bought out of the lockerbie sale. I struggle to see how a true hill flock can record accurately.

Do you know any breeders with rams straight off a hard hill that haven't had corn or cake? That also cull hard for any problems?

 

[neilo]

Nothing to stop a capable breeder keeping the desirable traits which you list and performance record his Cheviots in a commercial system. As the base of the stratification system, this should be encouraged in the hill breeds as it would help the whole industry. It's nonsense to say that you can only do one and not the other.

I understand there’s a scheme coming in in Wakes, to grant fund performance recording in Welsh hill flocks. The idea being that money invested there will lead to improvements, not only in those flocks, but down through the stratified system.
Of course, they will be up against the attitude demonstrated above.

 

[Agrivator]

I understand there’s a scheme coming in in Wakes, to grant fund performance recording in Welsh hill flocks. The idea being that money invested there will lead to improvements, not only in those flocks, but down through the stratified system.
Of course, they will be up against the attitude demonstrated above.

Bangor University's Aber farm were co-ordinators of such a scheme about forty years ago (involving John Owen, who developed the Cambridge breed). Anyone with contacts at the University's department of agriculture or whatever it's called now, will possibly be able to obtain details of what success it had, or whether it just petered out like many other similar projects ( Redesdale EHF in Northumberland, SAC at Kirkton in Argyll and the Bush in Edinburgh).
Hill sheep farming is an art, and is subject to so much environmental variation and folk lore that it is beyond the comprehension of simple quantitative geneticists.

 

[neilo]

Bangor University's Aber farm were co-ordinators of such a scheme about forty years ago (involving John Owen, who developed the Cambridge breed). Anyone with contacts at the University's department of agriculture or whatever it's called now, will possibly be able to obtain details of what success it had, or whether it just petered out like many other similar projects ( Redesdale EHF in Northumberland, SAC at Kirkton in Argyll and the Bush in Edinburgh).
Hill sheep farming is an art, and is subject to so much environmental variation and folk lore that it is beyond the comprehension of simple quantitative geneticists.

I would absolutely agree that you can’t breed sheep on a piece of paper, which is where these things tend to fall down when they are run by scientists. However, if a shepherd uses those available tools, alongside breeding for the functionality needed in their environment, they will make bigger improvements than basing genetic merit on the curl of the horn, etc.

Both need to work together, but one without the other is like hopping along on one leg, when two are available.

 

[Macsky]

Performance recording in the true hill flocks is next to impossible. DNA profiling of the entire breeding flock and progeny must be the about the only practical way of getting solid information, but until the cost comes down a lot one way or the other it doesn’t look at all affordable.

 

[neilo]

Performance recording in the true hill flocks is next to impossible. DNA profiling of the entire breeding flock and progeny must be the about the only practical way of getting solid information, but until the cost comes down a lot one way or the other it doesn’t look at all affordable.

Agreed. That doesn’t mean that the system doesn’t work though, just that the physical process of doing the recording (esp at birth) is impractical and/or expensive.

 

[Woolless]

Bangor University's Aber farm were co-ordinators of such a scheme about forty years ago (involving John Owen, who developed the Cambridge breed). Anyone with contacts at the University's department of agriculture or whatever it's called now, will possibly be able to obtain details of what success it had, or whether it just petered out like many other similar projects ( Redesdale EHF in Northumberland, SAC at Kirkton in Argyll and the Bush in Edinburgh).
Hill sheep farming is an art, and is subject to so much environmental variation and folk lore that it is beyond the comprehension of simple quantitative geneticists.

SAC at Kirkton recorded flocks still going strong, although I think they use some DNA sampling.

 

[Top Tip.]

SAC at Kirkton recorded flocks still going strong, although I think they use some DNA sampling.

I think they dna all lambs, the samples are sent to a lab in NZ.