Piping a natural spring

[JMTHORNLEY]

Evening all,

Having constantly more and more trouble with natural springs on my ground. As time is ticking on and I’m getting to other patches of ground to improve I’m finding more naturally occurring springs that seem to only effect a small area of the field and they lie wet. I have no idea how the water only pools and creates a bit of a bog and then seems to naturally drain away. I have found some of the old clay suffs that have blocked over the years and to tell the truth certain areas of the ground won’t have been looked at for 30 years so trying to piece together how that did it then and how to do it now is a bit of a problem.

I was talking to a very knowledgeable chap this evening who used to work closely with one of the very best suff menders in the area, sadly that chap has passed away now, and he said putting stone in the trench was the one thing never to do with a natural spring as the water would find its way up through into the top soil regardless as it’ll take the easiest route. While I half see where he is coming from I also find it hard to believe as all the ground falls downhill and if there’s a 6” pipe for it to flow down surely it’s going to take that route regardless...?

Whats the best way to pipe away the free flowing water and keep the ground drying. I’ve dug the trenches and herringboned the wetter affected areas into a main drain that flows downhill into a dug culvert so it’s got places to go

All advise and opinions very welcome. I’d love to just throw a pipe in and have done with it as that’d save a huge amount of money

 

[Sharpy]

The old boys round here who drained fields with spades said two things.
Go deep,the water must fall into the trench, if it rises into the trench it won't keep working. No such thing as a drain too deep.
Never lead water through a wet bit, take it round it.
Edit. I would add use twinwall pipe on the soggy bits, it will run cleaner and is much easier to install well.

 

[yellowbelly]

Dad always said you should 'tap a spring where it was dry'.

We used to go 20 or 30 yards above it and dig trench across the slope and keep going deeper and deeper until we got to the water. We'd then put a pipe in that trench and tee it off down the slope,through the wet bit and on to the dyke or the next suff.

 

[JMTHORNLEY]

The old boys round here who drained fields with spades said two things.
Go deep,the water must fall into the trench, if it rises into the trench it won't keep working. No such thing as a drain too deep.
Never lead water through a wet bit, take it round it.
Edit. I would add use twinwall pipe on the soggy bits, it will run cleaner and is much easier to install well.

I hadn’t thought about making the water fall into the trench instead of rising up into it. That’s a very good point! I’ll check where I’m up to as all I’d done was find the water and drying up around the wet patch, I may have to keep digging.
It’d be very difficult and hard going to match the falls up correctly to move the water around this patch of ground as it belly’s right where the wet point is, if that makes sense?

 

[Sharpy]

I hadn’t thought about making the water fall into the trench instead of rising up into it. That’s a very good point! I’ll check where I’m up to as all I’d done was find the water and drying up around the wet patch, I may have to keep digging.
It’d be very difficult and hard going to match the falls up correctly to move the water around this patch of ground as it belly’s right where the wet point is, if that makes sense?

I know what you mean, but they would put a ditch round the high side of a field rather than run a pipe through the low wet bit. As far as I can figure out it would be for two reasons.
If you put a pipe through a wet bit to carry water through some water will leave the pipe in drier weather, particularly as the ground dries and settles and the pipe becomes misaligned. This is then going to turn into a major burst, turning the wet bit into a swamp. You then would have the joyous job of redraining it with a spade. Again.
Secondly, if you stop all the water from above moving through the wet bit before you tackle it you will see the rises and will be able to tackle it better.
In your case though I suspect the spring is causing the wet bit, and you should be OK going through, just go deep to the firm ground.

 

[JMTHORNLEY]

Catching on now, it really is fascinating to see how they did it and how it still works. What’s the thinking regarding stone? Would you back fill it with some or let the pipe take it away?
I plan to keep the trench open for as long as I dare to let the surrounding ground dry out now there’s nothing passing through it so by the end of the drier time this year (if we ever get a proper one) I’m hoping to have a good majority of the area sorted

 

[Sharpy]

Catching on now, it really is fascinating to see how they did it and how it still works. What’s the thinking regarding stone? Would you back fill it with some or let the pipe take it away?
I plan to keep the trench open for as long as I dare to let the surrounding ground dry out now there’s nothing passing through it so by the end of the drier time this year (if we ever get a proper one) I’m hoping to have a good majority of the area sorted

I would stone to the surface in the wet bit, assuming that surface water wants to run to there anyway, if it can fall straight to the drain instead of percolating through soil it fairly helps.
As to backfilling, the old boys refused to put wet soil back in, ideally waiting till the trench sides were dry and powdery before covering the pipe. Not always practical but dry filled drains always drain better.

 

[JMTHORNLEY]

Lovely stuff, I shall post some pictures of my progress and see what you think? Fair few side trenches gone into it now and the water is flowing like a good un through it so I’ve tapped into a fair spring

 

[Mur Huwcun]

I tackled some wet spots here earlier in the year armed with a drain plan. Managed to find and clear most but one spot was rising water!! Unfortunately it was about 8 feet away from the next drain!! There was no way I was taking the digger there as I could drop a metal spike three or four feet into the ground!! In the end buckled up and dug with spade and mattock to find the drain and cut a trench from it to the rising water and just laid a branch pipe to see what will happen. The place fair doos has dried up remarkably well and there’s no water running on the surface yet!

 

[JMTHORNLEY]

 

[JMTHORNLEY]

Few images her of the main drain and some side drains. It’s drying unbelievably well at the moment but I’m still not 100% it’s deep enough. About three feet at its shallowest but I’ve not managed to get the water falling into the trench just yet. Keep going back and back and still finding water, just can’t decide which way to go to find it next

 

[Kevtherev]

Have you got a ditch to drain it into?

 

[organicguy]

I'd like a ditch between your wet spot and the field above with the reeds (or is that down hill?)
We have many springs which have been drained with clay pipes, piles of stones or stone drocks.
Our main problem is roots getting into the pipes and then blocking with silt during the winter.
The piles of stones we just dig down the side and replace with perforated plastic, always putting solid pipe close to hedges.
We dug one wet spot and found 4 pipes of different ages, so it might take a while.

Good luck.

 

[Devil's advocate]

Looks a decent depth of soil.

Is it peat? should be productive if you can dry it out.

 

[Boohoo]

Go deep and don't stop in the wet place because the water will be under the dry bit. You're aiming to catch the water before it spreads through the topsoil.

If you have to go deeper than the outfall dig the drain with a slight fall and dig a sump at the end of the drain and fill it with stone, field stones will do, before laying pipe and covering with clean stone. This isn't ideal but if the outfall isn't low enough there's nothing else you can do.

Shame I can't post a video but you can just make out the water running out of this recently dug drain in this photo

The far end of the drain has a 6 or 7ft deep sump that the water is rising in.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

First thing to do is go to the top of the field and dig test holes . 10 ft down or more , see if there is underground streams , if there is put a pipe and more than likely you can drain the whole field with one pipe . I've had 6 inch pipes nearly full by doing that

 

[JMTHORNLEY]

So, to answer a few

The field above is higher where the rush is. There is a 5 foot deep trench that separates the two fields so anything there is caught
I also have a ditch below to take away the water as I pipe it down hill again about 5/6 foot deep. The first is one I have put in and the second is one the old boys put in all them years ago.

As for soil, it’s a funny little field. Some places your on to three inch of top soil and then down into clay and then in other places 3/4 feet of soil, I can’t just figure it out. Once mucked hard and turned over with a winter N fixer in I think it’ll do some good. Was toying with the idea of tillage radish also

 

[Derrick Hughes]

So, to answer a few

The field above is higher where the rush is. There is a 5 foot deep trench that separates the two fields so anything there is caught [emoji1305]
I also have a ditch below to take away the water as I pipe it down hill again about 5/6 foot deep. The first is one I have put in and the second is one the old boys put in all them years ago.

As for soil, it’s a funny little field. Some places your on to three inch of top soil and then down into clay and then in other places 3/4 feet of soil, I can’t just figure it out. Once mucked hard and turned over with a winter N fixer in I think it’ll do some good. Was toying with the idea of tillage radish also

Not being rude but it could be down 8 ft at the top . One good deep drain could catch the lot . I've got drains down 10ft ,running like a streem
Test holes can save you a fortune

 

[Boohoo]

Go deep and don't stop in the wet place because the water will be under the dry bit. You're aiming to catch the water before it spreads through the topsoil.

If you have to go deeper than the outfall dig the drain with a slight fall and dig a sump at the end of the drain and fill it with stone, field stones will do, before laying pipe and covering with clean stone. This isn't ideal but if the outfall isn't low enough there's nothing else you can do.

Shame I can't post a video but you can just make out the water running out of this recently dug drain in this photo

The far end of the drain has a 6 or 7ft deep sump that the water is rising in.

Just remembered that I posted a picture of the other end of that drain in another thread https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index...ts-get-this-water-flowing.153748/post-7000552

Sump is deeper than I thought.

 

[JMTHORNLEY]

Not being rude but it could be down 8 ft at the top . One good deep drain could catch the lot . I've got drains down 10ft ,running like a streem
Test holes can save you a fortune

Oh I wouldn’t think it rude I’m happy for the advice and I was planning on doing some test holes as you say