Pre ems and adjuvants.

[SilliamWhale]

indeed on other thing he said was add anything pdm / dff etc before he would touch defy. We use 3 agronomists and if it wasn't for a very good financial understanding between us and them 2 would be finding another customer . Of interest was he said we was getting 10tha in early 80s in there teams eyes genetic development of seed was the way forward as fungicide haven't delivered the increase in yield near on 40 years since it was first achieved .

Why don't farmers weekly interview these sorts of people? We could all learn lots

 

[Goffer]

These guys bread and butter business to continue searching for the holy grail , they aren't money men there the botanists ( not sure on that terminology) but It's the never ending round about I suppose. Bring out something supposedly better or improved . The big sell then when it gives 10% more . Look at hamlet this year same stuff just different mix of ingredients . Now if wheat yield continued like some sugar beet has in the last 15 years things would be different . Have to say we stuck with riband - consort - solstice for near on 20 years as they were consistent but personally rotation , rotation , rotation is the key to most arable issues

 

[ollie989898]

You should ask to see their trials. I have....got nothing. Could you explain to me how it improves retention in soil?
You cannot spread a chemical onto soil, you can only increase droplet number and decrease those under 100 microns fo better coverage. A heavy oil will maintain a decent fan angle, hopefully have a positive charge to bind chem to clay particles in soil and reduce drift/improve coverage. Organosilicone is not this.
This is what I have seen and learnt, not read as claims.

I used it in the most dry of dry conditions, the maize refused to germinate evenly and to be honest I was genuinely expecting the PDM have dubious effectiveness as it did not rain for weeks after application.

Even so, the crop remained very clean and even by the time the crop emerged and began to actually do something it was still clean and I was very impressed. So as you can imagine I am not really fussed about whether or not you believe some short or long chain oil is superior or not. It worked well in my experience but even so it is not something I anticipating using very often anyway.

Most agronomists sit through near a hundred hours a year of technical lectures, powerpoint and bar graphs, and the content is normally the same: 'product X gives so many percent extra control than the control or product Y. After years of this stuff you begin to get cynical about it and so I am not in the least bit interested in trial data from anyone least of all Agrovista. or any other of the big names. We have our own trials where data is generated under our own strict protocols purely with the aim of aiding people to make technical decisions, not market a product for the sheer hell of it. I might listen to Dupont or Bayer or a chemical manufacturer whose technical people are usually more than candid about what works and what does not work so well if you ask them nicely.

I do not care a stuff about using C-cure or any of that gubbins with autumn chemistry. I have not used them yet and remain automatically sceptical of these things. I am in a region where a lack of moisture is rarely a huge issue. And given the financial aspects of the job today it is hardly the time to begin experimenting using other people's money given that they have not required them before now.

You can bump gums about using C-Cure or Remix or any of the above all you want, a decent seed bed and more attention paid to applying the stuff to moist soil and actually using a tankmix tailored to the anticipated weed spectrum is far more useful IMO.

I have no idea why you are getting your knickers in a twist over adjuvant use in one situaton- it's about as major as deciding what kind of nail scissors to use to cut your nails.

 

[ollie989898]

C-cure gets delivered here.
Doesnt go in the sprayer.
Gets collected and credited soon after.

As I have a new agronomist (Agrovista) for part of the farm, and he has sent some of his Remix / blue stuff, I have done a half field with it. I dont expect miracles, but if it works then it will stay, if it doesnt it will go.

I am of exactly the same opinion. I do not have the time or patience to be adding yet another can of product to the tank until I have direct experience of seeing it improve effectiveness to a significant degree.

 

[ollie989898]

indeed on other thing he said was add anything pdm / dff etc before he would touch defy. We use 3 agronomists and if it wasn't for a very good financial understanding between us and them 2 would be finding another customer . Of interest was he said we was getting 10tha in early 80s in there teams eyes genetic development of seed was the way forward as fungicide haven't delivered the increase in yield near on 40 years since it was first achieved .

Fungicides do not increase yield any more and have not really done so for some time. They will help preserve what yield you are going to get but you can apply them all at maximum rates at exactly the right timings and you aren't going to magically get 15t/ha by doing so. They are all largely protectant in nature now i'm afraid.

 

[ollie989898]

Can 3 agronomists be that wrong using defy? We are in fairly heavily infested bg country here?

No, if you are in that blackgrass situation then you are basically now in the business of finding a tank mix that works best, which will vary according to the BG population on each farm.

It is highly likely that your blackgrass has ERM to PDM, as it has been in use for donkeys. The same is true of DFF which has negligible effect on grass weeds anyway (it is used in turf production in some countries). As such, you are basically looking for a slap of flufenacet + partners. I have used flufenacet + flurtamone and DFF in the past (DFF does nice job on BLWs) and found it works well. I am unsure of defy which does get a lot of criticism thrown at it, though it is from the same chemical family as avadex which does have a fair following.

If you have reached the 'Atlantis doesn't work' stage then a hefty autumn program is justified since you will offset it against the fact you will have a saving come the spring when you don't use anything else save maybe some topik for wild oats or some ally or something for BLWs (unlikely to have many of these if pre-em is stiff).

Lastly, Atlantis does not have cranesbill on the label from memory so I would not expect it to do much to it. Atlantis is not a cure all product and never has been. Neither is Broadway star and Unite sure as hell is not either.

 

[franklin]

I cant find a label on a straight PDM that makes any claim about BG. The Defy label at least says it can do a bit of something.

None of the SUs are much cop against cranesbill. If thats the problem weed, then Defy might actually be the product of choice as a pre-em.

 

[Gong Farmer]

Is there any independent trial work done for adjuvants?

No. We've done loads, but never seen a benefit. You'll have to ask someone else.

Defy may not be as good as it used to be but these days with bad black-grass you have to chuck everything at it, good and bad.

 

[Rob E]

I used it in the most dry of dry conditions, the maize refused to germinate evenly and to be honest I was genuinely expecting the PDM have dubious effectiveness as it did not rain for weeks after application.

Even so, the crop remained very clean and even by the time the crop emerged and began to actually do something it was still clean and I was very impressed. So as you can imagine I am not really fussed about whether or not you believe some short or long chain oil is superior or not. It worked well in my experience but even so it is not something I anticipating using very often anyway.

Most agronomists sit through near a hundred hours a year of technical lectures, powerpoint and bar graphs, and the content is normally the same: 'product X gives so many percent extra control than the control or product Y. After years of this stuff you begin to get cynical about it and so I am not in the least bit interested in trial data from anyone least of all Agrovista. or any other of the big names. We have our own trials where data is generated under our own strict protocols purely with the aim of aiding people to make technical decisions, not market a product for the sheer hell of it. I might listen to Dupont or Bayer or a chemical manufacturer whose technical people are usually more than candid about what works and what does not work so well if you ask them nicely.

I do not care a stuff about using C-cure or any of that gubbins with autumn chemistry. I have not used them yet and remain automatically sceptical of these things. I am in a region where a lack of moisture is rarely a huge issue. And given the financial aspects of the job today it is hardly the time to begin experimenting using other people's money given that they have not required them before now.

You can bump gums about using C-Cure or Remix or any of the above all you want, a decent seed bed and more attention paid to applying the stuff to moist soil and actually using a tankmix tailored to the anticipated weed spectrum is far more useful IMO.

I have no idea why you are getting your knickers in a twist over adjuvant use in one situaton- it's about as major as deciding what kind of nail scissors to use to cut your nails.

Very rude young man, if you look back at the original post you'll see that even if I did wear knickers, they would not be in a twist on a bloody farming forum.

Using defy and movon with 3 different agronomists. One using dictate rapeseed oil @ £5 ha , one using back row parafin oil @£2 ha other using Sod all!! What's the pro's and cons and any difference apart from to my wallet???

The sheer lack of knowledge around adjuvants is just a tad worrying when we are all watching the inputs. Some adjuvants can make results worse apparently, so you really should care about how what you are using on your customers farms actually works, independents are meant to spend money more carefully??? I had several years of being given strange potions to try, so like most farmers When it comes to other inputs, I made sure I saw them in trials, either privately on the farm or in trials by companies. Understanding HOW they work or should work is just as important.
On your PDM trial, I suspect unless you left a few untreated strips with PDM only, the fantastic weed control you saw was more down to PDM being the most persistent pre-em active....and applied to maize end April/may??...it will have little problem lasting the couple months of weed emergence even in the dry dry conditions you mention.
At the end of the day, they are not cheap, especially looking at what some are paying in this thread, and we will have to agree to disagree on this one. luckily no matter what nail clippers I use the buggers will be cut in the same way and sure as s*** will fall off.

 

[Rob E]

No. We've done loads, but never seen a benefit. You'll have to ask someone else.

Defy may not be as good as it used to be but these days with bad black-grass you have to chuck everything at it, good and bad.

Not surprising given what's in some of them!

 

[Tractor Boy]

excellent example! Why are you using a non-ionic organosilicone WETTER with pre- em chemistry applied to soil!? They are for applying to the leaf, spreading and helping chem through wax layer.

One of the first reccomendations for silwett when first introduced was to use it with Dursban. If I remember correctly it was to enable the Dursban to run deeper into the soil but I can't remember whether it was for leather jackets, wire worm , wheat bulb fly or cutworm in potatoes. It was, however, a statistical improvement on application without it.

 

[Rob E]

One of the first reccomendations for silwett when first introduced was to use it with Dursban. If I remember correctly it was to enable the Dursban to run deeper into the soil but I can't remember whether it was for leather jackets, wire worm , wheat bulb fly or cutworm in potatoes. It was, however, a statistical improvement on application without it.

Yes I have heard similar, some other oils are good at making chem flow through soil deeper or quicker. But in the scenario of pre-em herbicides for black-grass, its the last thing you want. Not to mention if we start talking about water protection and leaching etc

 

[Tractor Boy]

Yes I have heard similar, some other oils are good at making chem flow through soil deeper or quicker. But in the scenario of pre-em herbicides for black-grass, its the last thing you want. Not to mention if we start talking about water protection and leaching etc

Fair enough. It can be used other than just a leaf spreader was all I was alluding to, but I take your point with bg pre ems.

 

[Rob E]

Fair enough. It can be used other than just a leaf spreader was all I was alluding to, but I take your point with bg pre ems.

Yes I agree, I would think Dursban was the only suitable use outside of foliar applications for it though. Guess it is easier to leave 'for soil application' or whatever on label, doesn't hurt business

 

[limestone brash]

The best adjuvant for a pre em is heavy rain -plenty of that around for free at present

 

[Brisel]

Adjuvants can improve efficacy but a better investment would be applying the pesticide properly in the first place. If you can't because of practical reasons e.g. lack of capacity, poor seedbeds, then consider a little help but not at any cost.

I'm surprised that @drummer_bruhaha hasn't said anything yet...

 

[ollie989898]

Very rude young man, if you look back at the original post you'll see that even if I did wear knickers, they would not be in a twist on a bloody farming forum.

The sheer lack of knowledge around adjuvants is just a tad worrying when we are all watching the inputs. Some adjuvants can make results worse apparently, so you really should care about how what you are using on your customers farms actually works, independents are meant to spend money more carefully??? I had several years of being given strange potions to try, so like most farmers When it comes to other inputs, I made sure I saw them in trials, either privately on the farm or in trials by companies. Understanding HOW they work or should work is just as important.
On your PDM trial, I suspect unless you left a few untreated strips with PDM only, the fantastic weed control you saw was more down to PDM being the most persistent pre-em active....and applied to maize end April/may??...it will have little problem lasting the couple months of weed emergence even in the dry dry conditions you mention.
At the end of the day, they are not cheap, especially looking at what some are paying in this thread, and we will have to agree to disagree on this one. luckily no matter what nail clippers I use the buggers will be cut in the same way and sure as s*** will fall off.

Are you in the business of selling something or trying to promote it? Lets be clear here. You are being very particular and very vociferous about something which I fail to perceive the excitement about- adjuvants for residual chemistry- how fascinating, I'll add that to the same list as: 'is it better to excavate your nose with your left or right index finger?'

You are singularly unaware of the facts surrounding the situation described. It was not a trial. It was two fields of maize that I knew were going to be in the high risk category for a whole list of reasons I will not discuss here.

I used the adjuvant with PDM, (which is pretty insoluble at the best of times), and the seed bed was as dry as dry. As such I was concerned that it was not going to work well at all, which is not unusual because PDM and putting the stuff on maize in spring is again, a fairly routine and boring operation. No fanfare, no details to sweat about, no I don't go using premium branded product because company X reckons it works better yadda yadda yadda...

I have no question in my mind relating to the persistence of PDM I can assure you as it has a demonstrated half life in soil of in excess of 90 days (I am one of the sad sorts who takes the time to learn about chemistry far beyond what is taught in a BASIS classroom, but then I always have an unhealthy passion for chemistry and biology anyway).

My concern was that it was not going to work a job given that near zero moisture was received for weeks after application. When it eventually did rain and the crop began to look like a crop (we are talking July now), the weed control remained fantastic even when the stuff was closing over and the field remained acceptably clean all season. Had it not been for the sow thistles I would probably have done no post-emergence treatment.

I don't quite know what your game is, but I am not the kind of person who will begin adding mystery cans of stuff to a recommendation because some big name is doing it. I do not see the point of them in autumn applications in my region whatsoever, I would prefer clients to achieve better seedbeds. A lack of moisture in the autumn is rarely a problem in my region which is generally trying to revert to the ancient swamp it was in 2012.

You have a peculiar interest in adjuvants for some reason I cannot fathom. I don't even use the product that often, I think it might total up enough to approach nearly being enough to count on my whole hand, though in doing so it appears to have irritated you insanely. I am sure your C-Cure or whatever long chain dish-soap I should have added would have been even better but since none was available to me at the time we shall never know.

If you really want to get your briefs in a tangle, you can start a separate discussion about whether people should be using adjuvants in tank mix with maize herbicides post-emergence, what products can be tank mixed and by how much before you turn the crop into Caspers ghost.

 

[franklin]

 

[Rob E]

Are you in the business of selling something or trying to promote it? Lets be clear here. You are being very particular and very vociferous about something which I fail to perceive the excitement about- adjuvants for residual chemistry- how fascinating, I'll add that to the same list as: 'is it better to excavate your nose with your left or right index finger?'

You are singularly unaware of the facts surrounding the situation described. It was not a trial. It was two fields of maize that I knew were going to be in the high risk category for a whole list of reasons I will not discuss here.

I used the adjuvant with PDM, (which is pretty insoluble at the best of times), and the seed bed was as dry as dry. As such I was concerned that it was not going to work well at all, which is not unusual because PDM and putting the stuff on maize in spring is again, a fairly routine and boring operation. No fanfare, no details to sweat about, no I don't go using premium branded product because company X reckons it works better yadda yadda yadda...

I have no question in my mind relating to the persistence of PDM I can assure you as it has a demonstrated half life in soil of in excess of 90 days (I am one of the sad sorts who takes the time to learn about chemistry far beyond what is taught in a BASIS classroom, but then I always have an unhealthy passion for chemistry and biology anyway).

My concern was that it was not going to work a job given that near zero moisture was received for weeks after application. When it eventually did rain and the crop began to look like a crop (we are talking July now), the weed control remained fantastic even when the stuff was closing over and the field remained acceptably clean all season. Had it not been for the sow thistles I would probably have done no post-emergence treatment.

I don't quite know what your game is, but I am not the kind of person who will begin adding mystery cans of stuff to a recommendation because some big name is doing it. I do not see the point of them in autumn applications in my region whatsoever, I would prefer clients to achieve better seedbeds. A lack of moisture in the autumn is rarely a problem in my region which is generally trying to revert to the ancient swamp it was in 2012.

You have a peculiar interest in adjuvants for some reason I cannot fathom. I don't even use the product that often, I think it might total up enough to approach nearly being enough to count on my whole hand, though in doing so it appears to have irritated you insanely. I am sure your C-Cure or whatever long chain dish-soap I should have added would have been even better but since none was available to me at the time we shall never know.

If you really want to get your briefs in a tangle, you can start a separate discussion about whether people should be using adjuvants in tank mix with maize herbicides post-emergence, what products can be tank mixed and by how much before you turn the crop into Caspers ghost.

I don't need your life story chap. This was a thread about adjuvants with pre-ems, to which I have taken a high interest in because I'm farming in a very high BG area and looking for every bit of help I can...sadly there are only few agronomists I trust nowadays so take it upon myself. It just shocks me when some (including agronomists it seems) can't explain why they are using certain things in a spray tank AND what are some are paying for rapeseed oil!
Take a deep breath, exhale and for god sake leave my pants out of this

 

[Desangosse Ltd]

Thanks @Brisel - I have been reading the thread with interest. There are certainly some inaccuracies in some of the posts. I am currently considering the offer of a limited place Adjuvant Academy. This is certainly not a product bash, but looks at the science behind adjuvants, water and what/where/why to use specific adjuvant chemistry types.

http://desangosse.co.uk/academy