- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Farm fuel cost me $12 per acre last year..
I'm not kidding.
I'm not kidding.
Production Based Subsidies
- Thread starter Macsky
- Start date
Yes 'subsidies' are out. Farmers will have 'contracts' for delivering 'public goods', eg Improving permanent pasture, as KiwiP says improving soil. And flood control, wildlife habitats, reed beds, trees, bird boxes, beetle banks, etc....
Increasing public access is on the agenda too, wild camping, paragliding, canoeing, .....
Ruminants will have a role in pasture and habitat management but food production will be secondary. If that doesn't appeal suggest you lobby Nicola as agriculture is devolved (guessing you're N of the border!)
Increasing public access is on the agenda too, wild camping, paragliding, canoeing, .....
Ruminants will have a role in pasture and habitat management but food production will be secondary. If that doesn't appeal suggest you lobby Nicola as agriculture is devolved (guessing you're N of the border!)
Is carbon farming getting any traction in NZ?
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
It is down these ways, apart from a few "progressive" types who like to shiny-up their ploughs each year.
Have a bit of a following going now
Soil Focus Group started out at 6 nosy locals who wanted to pick holes in the new guy on the block
Last meeting I hosted 48
Now that people see that 'doing nothing drastic but think differently' actually works it's quite popular- must make their olds laugh because they'd always sort of done it
You just have to break the concepts slowly, you know what people (esp farmers) are like..
Luckily there's been some good threads on here lately with heaps of good links about what people overseas are doing, which has given me a lot more proper figures and videos to help confirm what we already knew but couldn't back up so well.
But the majority of the country still like to think you can prepare a 3 course meal with one egg and butter
The fert reps never came back a second time
But, it's getting there.
More intensive areas will be the last to adopt it as you'd expect, but down here it's pretty much "last of the summer wine"
It's easier to convince relaxed people to do less spending and do more research.
It's all on the web.
Hopefully one day we'll turn an advantage back into an advantage before we fudge the soil, that's all on the web, too!
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
No direct financial incentives as yet, hopefully something for the future though.
0.4% per year is just so easily achieved IMO. Measurement is easy especially if independently tested.
Your current systems do very little from what I see; HLS is on the right track but overly prescriptive and restrictive ie creates a handicap for the farmer, and BPS lets you away with whatever you like with equal reward.
(As in, go no-till but smack on heaps of bagged N, or go organic and beat soil to dirt, or go hearty on both! But trim a hedge on the wrong day and there's a penalty
)Calendars are easy to read.
What's good about the current system?
Well, I'd rather have an industry left to think for themselves within best practice standards, as opposed to a carrot in front/wolf behind system.
Make any reward for displaying a measurable environmental improvement, whether that be reducing carbon output or management to sequester carbon..
All the current system does is maintain control and squash the farmer into a box.
Emancipated farmers suddenly improve their business, not always at environmental cost nor loss of production, that's plain to see from over here without incentives.
But, if you've been watching me rant about N on another thread, the main obstacle is so many believe their own
don't stink because they've been given the endorsement to do what yields best.Oppose that view and you are quickly shut down.
Sooner or later that paradigm will be shown for the farce that it is, hopefully your Brexit will be the best thing for UK AG since Adolf. It will have casualties.
Is carbon trading part of the future of agriculture?
Apparently there is a carbon market for industry. EG after 2020, EU airlines will have to offset their growth in emissions by purchasing eligible 'emission units' generated by projects that reduce emissions in other sectors (e.g. renewable energy).
So why is there no market for farmers to sell (or buy) emission units (carbon credits)?
Apparently there is a carbon market for industry. EG after 2020, EU airlines will have to offset their growth in emissions by purchasing eligible 'emission units' generated by projects that reduce emissions in other sectors (e.g. renewable energy).
So why is there no market for farmers to sell (or buy) emission units (carbon credits)?
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- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Guy Smith
Do you think the NFU can successfully lobby this as part of the Brexit deals?
Look at the scooping of organic conversion payments as an example of what didn't really work.
(Plus beef and mutton taste considerably better than Sitka Spruce- look at NZ's rush into farm forestry in the 90s- often wasteful of the finite soil resources we all share)
Be interested to hear what you think.
Do you think the NFU can successfully lobby this as part of the Brexit deals?
- Improve how public perceive your industry
- Alter the current benefits afforded to farmers in a positive way
- Have tangible future benefits for food production due to reversing effects of "industrial agricultural methods"
- Let the farmers decide how best to achieve this goal
- Less problems with nutrient loss
Look at the scooping of organic conversion payments as an example of what didn't really work.
(Plus beef and mutton taste considerably better than Sitka Spruce- look at NZ's rush into farm forestry in the 90s- often wasteful of the finite soil resources we all share)
Be interested to hear what you think.
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- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
For Your Interest:
The current state of play in NZ re ETS
(The guy readily acknowledged that our farm was sequestering around 150% as much Carbon as relative to the equivalent area planted in exotic pine forest- even with the methane production from 10 sheep units per acre and 1 tractor hour per acre - we are well in the green here.)
The current state of play in NZ re ETS
(The guy readily acknowledged that our farm was sequestering around 150% as much Carbon as relative to the equivalent area planted in exotic pine forest- even with the methane production from 10 sheep units per acre and 1 tractor hour per acre - we are well in the green here.)
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glasshouse
Member
- Location
- lothians
I have always argued that a crop of grass or grain will sequester as much carbon as a tree crop, you are saying it is actually better?
Farmers being conned again it seems.
So many good upland farms are being planted to trees, after eviction of the tenants of course.
Farmers being conned again it seems.
So many good upland farms are being planted to trees, after eviction of the tenants of course.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Yes- so long as it's permanent pasture or permanent cover and actively growing.
That's really the mainstay of any good holistic system- leaf=life as root=carbon
The helpful people at Carbon Farm were kind enough to come down last 2 winters and do accurate soil carbon measurements for me, even though our official stance here is to leave ag out of it in the meantime...
Even they were dumbfounded, my nice pasture and management meant that an acre of my farm is sinking more C than 1.6 acres of pine forest.
When they took into account I only use a small amount of mechanisation here and have high stocking rates, it still came out on top.. 138% the sequestration of C after the deduction for C, NO2, methane losses.
So yes, there is a discrepancy, but they don't really want to examine the whole industry yet and most dairy units are N fiends and that rapidly swings it the other way.
But - it could be a viable option for you guys in the UK as there could well be a drastic U turn in farming practices and methods if subsidies get repackaged in the years ahead- I really do think it's worth your while at least exploring it which is why I've tagged Guy.
It could be the "breath of fresh air" you guys need, as you would be able to balance the production/environment returns yourselves and basically avoid the "dictatorship" control methods of your existing subs and grants.
An actual case of baking the cake yourself and being allowed to eat what you want?
Most production systems harm the environment and most environmental systems harm the production.
But then you look to the regenerative ag following in the US and Aus and see you really can have both in a sustainable holistic approach.
The stuff of dreams, which is why I dream a lot and sleep hardly at all!!
Most of the struggle you'd have with implementation would be watching the heavy N users and ploughmen go broke- Carbon loss is not a figment of the imagination - the dustbowl era is very very real. Hence the huge shift to carbon focus in drier climes.
Feel free to ask any questions as this particular topic is my life- hence my doggedness on the N addiction thread.
It wasn't just to score points with Ollie, this is the future of ag, IMHO
That's really the mainstay of any good holistic system- leaf=life as root=carbon
The helpful people at Carbon Farm were kind enough to come down last 2 winters and do accurate soil carbon measurements for me, even though our official stance here is to leave ag out of it in the meantime...
Even they were dumbfounded, my nice pasture and management meant that an acre of my farm is sinking more C than 1.6 acres of pine forest.
When they took into account I only use a small amount of mechanisation here and have high stocking rates, it still came out on top.. 138% the sequestration of C after the deduction for C, NO2, methane losses.
So yes, there is a discrepancy, but they don't really want to examine the whole industry yet and most dairy units are N fiends and that rapidly swings it the other way.
But - it could be a viable option for you guys in the UK as there could well be a drastic U turn in farming practices and methods if subsidies get repackaged in the years ahead- I really do think it's worth your while at least exploring it which is why I've tagged Guy.
It could be the "breath of fresh air" you guys need, as you would be able to balance the production/environment returns yourselves and basically avoid the "dictatorship" control methods of your existing subs and grants.
An actual case of baking the cake yourself and being allowed to eat what you want?
Most production systems harm the environment and most environmental systems harm the production.
But then you look to the regenerative ag following in the US and Aus and see you really can have both in a sustainable holistic approach.
The stuff of dreams, which is why I dream a lot and sleep hardly at all!!
Most of the struggle you'd have with implementation would be watching the heavy N users and ploughmen go broke- Carbon loss is not a figment of the imagination - the dustbowl era is very very real. Hence the huge shift to carbon focus in drier climes.
Feel free to ask any questions as this particular topic is my life- hence my doggedness on the N addiction thread.
It wasn't just to score points with Ollie, this is the future of ag, IMHO
How did you arrive at these figures? Did you use one of the established carbon calculators?
There are several Carbon calculators on the web. One is CLA's CALM, which seems to be well respected. There's also the US COMET FARM calculator, which covers the continental US, so to use it elsewhere you need to find a part of the US with your climate, soil, etc.
Those are interesting figures of yours, but contrary to much scientific opinion, eg see Dr Tara Garnett (Oxford University) 29mins into this:
http://sustainablefoodtrust.org/articles/debating-the-role-of-livestock-with-joel-salatin/
So reading the rest of your post, the position in NZ as elsewhere I suspect, is that 'big' industrial farming is fearful of emissions trading so are lobbying against it?
The likes of Joel Salatin and Alan Savory are seen as snake oil salesmen and poo-pooed by much of the scientific community. We need to evidence to show otherwise.
PS just read your post ^. Who is Carbon Farm?
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- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Yep that is exactly the case, here, Woolly.
Clean and Green is what we say but not quite in the green!!
I don't know what sort of calculator they have for dealing with the emissions/sequestration ratio as it's not even as simple as saying my old aircooled SAME is just one tractor unit, same as your tier 4 Fendt
they were very very thorough took a picture of each of my paddocks and a GPS reference so they would have known if I'd secretly tipped one over and grown a quick crop of beans and GPSd each soil test and recorded it
I actually thought "this is what red tractor must feel like" you'll have absolutely no shortage of people needing a job who could do all the monitoring and testing to make it watertight.
If they -public and govt- want less pollution, carbon sinking to offset other C losers in other sectors, sustainability, diversity, wildflowers, a nice green landscape, farmer support without hooking into the public purse.... this would meet all those and still let you run a profitable enterprise without so many of the hoops and resentment of, pòor public support, industry image issues, low farmer morale...
it's like a return to the dark ages - with nice soundproof cabs
not necessarily the gloom and doom exit from the EU that has everyone worried.
See I think about you guys a lot, too
The main problem with Salatin, Brandt, Gabe Brown, Will Harris and everyone else is- they don't farm in the UK. Always hear how the rules of the rest of the world don't apply to the UK and that is an attitude and paradigm that can easily and readily be changed IMO.
Change is on it's way, like it or not, adaptation is key to survival, and most farmers won't have to do much different to what they did yesterday except worry a whole lot less about their future on the land.
More longer term leys, edible covercropping, mob stocking, pasture cropping, just don't let the soil go without a sunhat!
Win-win?
Clean and Green is what we say but not quite in the green!!
I don't know what sort of calculator they have for dealing with the emissions/sequestration ratio as it's not even as simple as saying my old aircooled SAME is just one tractor unit, same as your tier 4 Fendt
they were very very thorough took a picture of each of my paddocks and a GPS reference so they would have known if I'd secretly tipped one over and grown a quick crop of beans
and GPSd each soil test and recorded itI actually thought "this is what red tractor must feel like" you'll have absolutely no shortage of people needing a job who could do all the monitoring and testing to make it watertight.
If they -public and govt- want less pollution, carbon sinking to offset other C losers in other sectors, sustainability, diversity, wildflowers, a nice green landscape, farmer support without hooking into the public purse.... this would meet all those and still let you run a profitable enterprise without so many of the hoops and resentment of, pòor public support, industry image issues, low farmer morale...
it's like a return to the dark ages - with nice soundproof cabs
not necessarily the gloom and doom exit from the EU that has everyone worried.
See I think about you guys a lot, too
The main problem with Salatin, Brandt, Gabe Brown, Will Harris and everyone else is- they don't farm in the UK. Always hear how the rules of the rest of the world don't apply to the UK and that is an attitude and paradigm that can easily and readily be changed IMO.
Change is on it's way, like it or not, adaptation is key to survival, and most farmers won't have to do much different to what they did yesterday except worry a whole lot less about their future on the land.
More longer term leys, edible covercropping, mob stocking, pasture cropping, just don't let the soil go without a sunhat!
Win-win?
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
They are one of the carbon credit trading outfits here, but really only deal with forestry and farm forestry because of the points covered above. Several others too but I liked them because they had "farm" in their title
I was amazed at their level of investment in our little experiment for no real gain for either party except knowledge gained.
Same with quite a few other research facilities that have come for a farm walk and a dig for worms everyone is excited about soil health all of a sudden it seems.
And rightfully so, were only about 50 or 60 years behind the leaders
I was amazed at their level of investment in our little experiment for no real gain for either party except knowledge gained.
Same with quite a few other research facilities that have come for a farm walk and a dig for worms
everyone is excited about soil health all of a sudden it seems.And rightfully so, were only about 50 or 60 years behind the leaders
Thanks for your concern - we need all we can get!See I think about you guys a lot, too
......
Change is on it's way, like it or not, adaptation is key to survival, and most farmers won't have to do much different to what they did yesterday except worry a whole lot less about their future on the land.
More longer term leys, edible covercropping, mob stocking, pasture cropping, just don't let the soil go without a sunhat!
Win-win?
So who is Carbon Farm and who pays them?? How do they ensure their independence? Is carbon trading on the horizon for you?
Wales is a good place to make the case as it's mostly low input livestock farming. But currently I don't detect much interest perhaps because the Welsh farming unions are mostly offshoots of their English masters.
Whether our livestock Brexit future is 'win-win' depends on the price of a carbon credit (1 tonne of carbon sequestered)? £10 a credit is doom-doom, £100 a credit would be a game-changer.
Thanks again for your concern
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- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
I didn't actually discuss their company too much at all!
I can do a little bit of finding out, if you like?
My in-laws came from Wales (townies though) and just got citizenship last week; they still can't get over how much like Wales it looks, they say our weather here is even more fickle as a whole and miss seeing Welsh language- and speaking it- but reckon they landed in the right place..
and yes, value of a tonne of CO2 is reasonably important but the actual amounts floating around are absolutely massive!!
As a useless fact, by raising my SOM average by 1.1% in a year, my soil can hold an extra 66000 gallons of water per acre.
And it will infiltrate 130mm/hr -get 940mm/year here. Dont get surface water, that's for real! Don't have droughts, either..
So I don't need the payment incentive to truck on with it, it's a benefit in itself.
No need for thanks at all, pleased you bought it up
I can do a little bit of finding out, if you like?
My in-laws came from Wales (townies though) and just got citizenship last week; they still can't get over how much like Wales it looks, they say our weather here is even more fickle as a whole and miss seeing Welsh language- and speaking it- but reckon they landed in the right place..
and yes, value of a tonne of CO2 is reasonably important but the actual amounts floating around are absolutely massive!!
As a useless fact, by raising my SOM average by 1.1% in a year, my soil can hold an extra 66000 gallons of water per acre.
And it will infiltrate 130mm/hr -get 940mm/year here. Dont get surface water, that's for real! Don't have droughts, either..
So I don't need the payment incentive to truck on with it, it's a benefit in itself.
No need for thanks at all, pleased you bought it up
glasshouse
Member
- Location
- lothians
i used do organic farming which meant i ploughed only 2 or 3 yrs in 7.I didn't actually discuss their company too much at all!
I can do a little bit of finding out, if you like?
My in-laws came from Wales (townies though) and just got citizenship last week; they still can't get over how much like Wales it looks, they say our weather here is even more fickle as a whole and miss seeing Welsh language- and speaking it- but reckon they landed in the right place..
and yes, value of a tonne of CO2 is reasonably important but the actual amounts floating around are absolutely massive!!
As a useless fact, by raising my SOM average by 1.1% in a year, my soil can hold an extra 66000 gallons of water per acre.
And it will infiltrate 130mm/hr -get 940mm/year here. Dont get surface water, that's for real! Don't have droughts, either..
So I don't need the payment incentive to truck on with it, it's a benefit in itself.
No need for thanks at all, pleased you bought it up
no N and no chem.