Row cleaners

[Banana Bar]

How necessary do you think it is to have row cleaners on a disc drill? How much of an issue is hair pinning on disc drills. I have no intention of selling straw to make a disc work so need to make sure I spec properly. I also wonder if hair pinning appears a bigger issue than it actually is?

Thanks

BB

 

[fred.950]

I think if you can have row cleaners then you should. Hair pinning is a massive problem for us and we now plant a lot of autumn crops with a tine or after a pass with a kockerling vario.

 

[Andrew K]

How necessary do you think it is to have row cleaners on a disc drill? How much of an issue is hair pinning on disc drills. I have no intention of selling straw to make a disc work so need to make sure I spec properly. I also wonder if hair pinning appears a bigger issue than it actually is?

Thanks

BB

A vertical disc probably needs RC, an angled disc probably doesnt.

 

[Warnesworth]

Get a tine drill and have the best of both worlds. Hair pinning is very real in chopped straw.

 

[Fish]

Hair pinning is the very reason we run both disc and tine drills.

The disc will drill wheat after break crops and most Spring crops, and I will drill rape and barley with the disc if the straw is removed but if the straw is chopped that's where the tine is used.

I have used the disc in chopped straw, but you're just rolling the dice, sometimes it will work others totally fail.

I looked at row cleaners, but decided that for me a cheap tine was the best option.

 

[Clive]

depends in the disc drill - not a issue for a Novag for example !

the row cleaners we ran on our 750a were very good when needed but most if the time were not really needed

rotation is the best way to solve the problem i think

 

[Warnesworth]

depends in the disc drill - not a issue for a Novag for example !

the row cleaners we ran on our 750a were very good when needed but most if the time were not really needed

rotation is the best way to solve the problem i think

I have to disagree. Some of the worst hair pinning I have seen was in fields drilled with the Cross Slot. I can’t see how the Novag would be any better? If they are so good why aren’t you running one? Put your money where your mouth is...

 

[Clive]

I have to disagree. Some of the worst hair pinning I have seen was in fields drilled with the Cross Slot. I can’t see how the Novag would be any better? If they are so good why aren’t you running one? Put your money where your mouth is...

i have use of the uk demo machine here in exchange for storing it and letting others see crops drilled with it ..... don’t need to buy one, hairpinig doesn’t matter so much when the seed is not in contact with straw

its a good machine in the right situation better than either my avatar or tined Horsch on heavy soils or when its hard and dry

But the majority of my land is light, longer term no till and its OTT on that when the same tractor can pull a cheaper drill 3 x wider

it has its place IMO - if i had 100% heavy souls it would be my drill if choice

i know how much you like a CO conversion, I like ours a lot, its a great drill especially when wet and cheap BUT it does have it’s limitations. Off the 4 drills I have access to (avatar, novag, biodtill and co ). I would rank it as no 3 with only the bio drill behind it ...... although in a wet season its number 1 !

 

[jh.]

I have to disagree. Some of the worst hair pinning I have seen was in fields drilled with the Cross Slot. I can’t see how the Novag would be any better? If they are so good why aren’t you running one? Put your money where your mouth is...

The theory of the inverted T is the disc can still hairpin but the seed is planted to the side

 

[Warnesworth]

The theory of the inverted T is the disc can still hairpin but the seed is planted to the side

This is what they would have you believe but the reality is different. I don't know how it does it, but it puts straw and chaff right next to the seed on the shelf. Seen on three different farms on differing soil types. Couldn't believe it the first time I saw it, by the third time I had come to expect it.
Rule number one: all discs hair-pin.

 

[Warnesworth]

i have use of the uk demo machine here in exchange for storing it and letting others see crops drill with it ..... don’t need to buy one, hairpinig doesn’t matter so much when the seed is not in contact with straw

its a good machine in the right situation better than either my avatar or tined Horsch on heavy soils or when its hard and dry

But the majority of my land is light, longer term no till and its OTT on that when the same tractor can pull a cheaper drill 3 x wider

it has its place IMO - if i had 100% heavy souls it would be my drill if choice

i know how much you like a CO conversion, I like ours a lot, its a great drill especially when wet and cheap BUT it does have it’s limitations. Off the 4 drills I have access to (avatar, novag, biodtill and co ). I would rank it as no 3 with only the bio drill behind it ...... although in a wet season its number 1 !

Again I would disagree, heavy land situations are where these heavy drills simply don't work, heavier land by its very nature is much more sensitive to damage by weight and this is a heavy drill requiring a heavy tractor to pull it, i.e. lots of weight. It's sold on the basis of 'one drill for every situation' so when the heavy land is slightly too wet the damage is done.

As I have said above the hair pinning is next to the seed in chopped straw situations, I have seen it many times.

I do like the Horsch conversion, and I especially like what you have done with it with the front tank, as I have said to you before it's almost genius, but I accept that it also has its limitations, hence the two drill solution. But would you have used the Novag in the same situation when it was so wet (and on lighter soil)? By advocating this one drill, sold as a one drill fits all, lets people down in my opinion because when the soil conditions don't suit it the farmer is stuck with an expensive boat anchor because they probably cant afford to invest in a second drill. And then what other drill do you buy to compliment it because is the CS/Novag primarily a disc or tine...?

Answer: it's not one or the other, but a compromise of the two, which is the worst place to be IMO. And its too heavy for our soils IMO.

 

[Clive]

Again I would disagree, heavy land situations are where these heavy drills simply don't work, heavier land by its very nature is much more sensitive to damage by weight and this is a heavy drill requiring a heavy tractor to pull it, i.e. lots of weight. It's sold in the basis of 'one drill for every situation' so when the heavy land is slightly too wet the damage is done.

As I have said above the hair pinning is next to the seed in chopped straw situations, I have seen it many times.

I do like the Horsch conversion, and I especially like what you have done with it with the front tank, as I have said to you before it's almost genius, but I accept that it also has its limitations, hence the two drill solution. But would you have used the Novag in the same situation when it was so wet (and on lighter soil)? By advocating this one drill, sold as a one drill fits all, lets people down in my opinion because when the soil conditions don't suit it the farmer is stuck with an expensive boat anchor because they probably cant afford to invest in a second drill. And then what other drill do you buy to compliment it because is the CS/Novag primarily a disc or tine...?

doesn’t really match my experience. I have had many situations where I couldn’t even get the 750a or avatar coulter in the ground ......... sometimes you need weight in a direct drill

I’ve also had issues closing slots on stronger soils with 759a , avatar and co - not so with the Novag however

the Novag weakness is its weight in a wet year however, and we have a couple such years in the front of our minds right now

in the wet weight is the last thing you need / want. 2020 was the year for a drill like a co conversion, Especially one with a front hopper treading as light as possible but frankly in a hard, dry august / September it would be as useful as a chocolate teapot even on my lighter, longer term not till soils

if I’ve learnt anything over the last 15years it‘s that no 2 seasons are the same and no single drill is right for all soils, situations and seasons

if my entire farm was light / medium soils and I could only have one drill it would be the avatar, if it was all heavier soils it would be a Novag ............. in either situation I would also have a CO conversion for those wet years !

 

[Warnesworth]

if my entire farm was light / medium soils and I could only have one drill it would be the avatar, if it was all heavier soils it would be a Novag ............. in either situation I would also have a CO conversion for those wet years !

What? If you could only have one drill, you'd have an Avatar or Novag (dependent on soil type), but you'd still have the Horsch with either?
Surely that's two drills in both situations...?

 

[ajd132]

no way is a novag/cross slot a good drill in heavy land, its too heavy, needs too much horsepower, as warnesworth said clay soil when damp can be more susceptible to damage. loads of farmers in essex on heavy clay bought them 5/6 years ago when they were all the rage and many of them have been sold recently.
12m avatar on a 250-300hp tractor is a much better option than 4m cross slot/novag on a bigger tractor on heavy clay and it will probably cost you less. You will also have the benefit it mega timeliness which is the key on heavy ground and you barely run on any soil, much better on headlands aswell.

 

[Rihards]

In most situations narrow tine is Best bangs for bucks on heavy clay soils... Why? Because clay is realy rarely truly dry for drilling, especialy if you chop all straw. Disturbance? Realy bulls**t, just keep drilling on slow speed and small disturbance Will always perform in better yield iņ this side of Europe. So sorry, disc Boys, keep playing with 'lets pimp this and this to make this sh!t workable'

 

[SorenIlsoe]

My experinces with tine drills is that they can make problems also. Because of soil flow, straw and soil can land on top of the seed row and cover the seed so germination is reduced or does not happen.
So if I generally drill in 4 cm depth, then some places there will be thrown 2-3-4 cm soil and straw on top af that which covers seed too deep. This is off course the worst for small OSR seeds.
Hitting stubble with the tine cause chaos, so angled drilling is to prefer.
Best way is drilling with RTK at 25 cm and drill between the rows with GPS. This makes it possible to have higher stubble and less straw on surface.
Leaving High stubble at harvest for disc drills helps a lot and reduces the amont of straw on the soil. But here there is no soil disturbance and seed depth is more even.

 

[KJM]

How necessary do you think it is to have row cleaners on a disc drill? How much of an issue is hair pinning on disc drills. I have no intention of selling straw to make a disc work so need to make sure I spec properly. I also wonder if hair pinning appears a bigger issue than it actually is?

Thanks

BB

I run arick row cleaners on a 750A and find them very good. I leave them down all the time and find they help establishment in most situations. I think I have less slug issues using them as hairpinning can make easy access to the seed slot for slugs. They are set to move the residue not the soil so don't really disturb much soil.

Chopped straw can still cause issues if it keeps the ground wet below the straw which row cleaners or a tyne drill won't fix. We still bale straw in some situations because of this.

I would want them on the drill if I was buying one. Would be better if it was a factory fitted option as there is quite a lot of work making up lifting bars etc for the Aricks. The other essential option for me would be a fert hopper.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Leave your straw standing ( ie don’t chop it ), plant on wider rows ( 250 mm - the sky won’t fall in. We plant on 250 / 333 / 375 even 400 mm spacings for wheat ), & use RTK steering ( maybe on the planter as well as the tractor if you want to be REALLY accurate ) to plant between the previous crops rows, then hairpinning will be less of an issue
As stated above, the style of disc planter will also make a difference, they aren’t all the same “oils ain’t oils” . . .
A disc with an undercut angle is less likely to hair pin than one that is completely vertical, for example. ( the Australian Boss, or French version Sky ? Novag ? Is one such undercut style )
Check out the ( Canadian I think ? ) Pillar Lazer disc planter, for one that completely eliminates hair pinning.
The other crucial factor with reducing hair pinning with ANY disc planter is having new discs - don’t be tempted to run old worn discs down to their minimum specs or try & get another season out of them.

most disc planter problems can be solved with new discs, new gauge wheels & an operator who knows how to use them properly . . .

 

[Simon Chiles]

most disc planter problems can be solved with new discs, and operator who knows how to use them properly . . .

Slightly edited but this is how I would have summed it up.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Slightly edited but this is how I would have summed it up.

true, i agree

but i have also found that new gauge wheel tyres & being able to maintain that correct spacing between disc & rubber can make a lot of difference in certain straw & soil conditions