Sam 3

[Samcowman]

Before everyone gets the shiits up them about certain numbers in each category make sure you read the guidance. There is no requirement to have minimum numbers of grasses legumes or herbs. As shown in the middle of my screenshot under how to do it

 

[som farmer]

Before everyone gets the shiits up them about certain numbers in each category make sure you read the guidance. There is no requirement to have minimum numbers of grasses legumes or herbs. As shown in the middle of my screenshot under how to do it View attachment 1167706

for something to do with defra/rpa, it does seem incredibly relaxed, or referring to previous schemes, its amazingly relaxed.

and there's the problem, we don't trust them, so keep looking for the 'catch', which doesn't seem to be there.

@slackjawedyokel mix seems very complicated, and probably very expensive.

anybody wanting info about the actual herbs, legumes and grasses, Cotswold Seeds website is a really good place to start, its free to look, but expensive to buy, but there is a huge amount of info on there.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Have I missed something . Thought it was a mix of 2 grass ,2clover,2herbs

There are no rules but this is there advice , you be lucky to find a seed merchant that will issue a Sam3 ticket with anything less , but for a few quid an acre why would you take the risk

5 species of grass, such as cocksfoot, festulolium, meadow fescue, perennial ryegrass, smooth-stalked meadow grass, tall fescue and timothy

3 species of legumes, such as bird’s-foot-trefoil, lucerne, red clover, sainfoin winter vetch and common vetch, and black medick

5 species of herbs, such as burnet, chicory, ribwort plantain and yarrow

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Before everyone gets the shiits up them about certain numbers in each category make sure you read the guidance. There is no requirement to have minimum numbers of grasses legumes or herbs. As shown in the middle of my screenshot under how to do it View attachment 1167706

So how do you achieve the aim of sowing a herbal ley if you don't sow what a herbal ley is ,that's not some Ryegrass , some clover and 2 herbs, I've been selling that mixed for years ,itssold as semi herbal

 

[slackjawedyokel]

for something to do with defra/rpa, it does seem incredibly relaxed, or referring to previous schemes, its amazingly relaxed.

and there's the problem, we don't trust them, so keep looking for the 'catch', which doesn't seem to be there.

@slackjawedyokel mix seems very complicated, and probably very expensive.

anybody wanting info about the actual herbs, legumes and grasses, Cotswold Seeds website is a really good place to start, its free to look, but expensive to buy, but there is a huge amount of info on there.

I haven’t priced it up this year so far (has been eyewatering the past couple of years so have been tweaking the mix as it was heading up past £140/ac). Have used Cotswold for 20+years - occasionally have priced up elsewhere but not significantly cheaper.
Can afford expensive seeds especially if I’m being paid SAM3 rates for it (as I’ve already got it over most of the farm).
The vetch makes it ‘spensive but I need it to get bulk as I silage it in about August (3or4 months after sowing).

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I will post this again for some clarity
It say will usually include at least
I would certainly not contemplate then sowing considerably less.



The correct seed mix is vital to growing a high-quality herbal ley. It will usually include at least:

5 species of grass, such as cocksfoot, festulolium, meadow fescue, perennial ryegrass, smooth-stalked meadow grass, tall fescue and timothy

3 species of legumes, such as bird’s-foot-trefoil, lucerne, red clover, sainfoin winter vetch and common vetch, and black medick

5 species of herbs, such as burnet, chicory, ribwort plantain and yarrow

Avoid festulolium and perennial ryegrass combined making up more than 70% by weight of the total seed mix.

 

[e3120]

I will post this again for some clarity
It say will usually include at least
I would certainly not contemplate then sowing considerably less.



The correct seed mix is vital to growing a high-quality herbal ley. It will usually include at least:

5 species of grass, such as cocksfoot, festulolium, meadow fescue, perennial ryegrass, smooth-stalked meadow grass, tall fescue and timothy

3 species of legumes, such as bird’s-foot-trefoil, lucerne, red clover, sainfoin winter vetch and common vetch, and black medick

5 species of herbs, such as burnet, chicory, ribwort plantain and yarrow

Avoid festulolium and perennial ryegrass combined making up more than 70% by weight of the total seed mix.

That's part of the voluntary guidance. The aim is not to sow a herbal ley. It is to provide varied root structures.

I know it's wishy washy, but if that's the way they want to play it....

 

[Derrick Hughes]

That's part of the voluntary guidance. The aim is not to sow a herbal ley. It is to provide varied root structures.

I know it's wishy washy, but if that's the way they want to play it....

Have you found a seed company that will stamp a Ticket Sam 3 or are you going to go alone with it

 

[e3120]

Have you found a seed company that will stamp a Ticket Sam 3 or are you going to go alone with it

I have existing leys (mostly sown in the last 5 years) that contain clovers and herbs "that can reasonably be expected to achieve this action’s aim."

I might tweak new reseeds when the time comes, but undecided.

I shall frame this:-

How to do it

It’s up to you how you complete this action, as long as you do it in a way that can reasonably be expected to achieve this action’s aim.

You may find it helpful to read the voluntary guidance on how to establish and maintain herbal leys, but you do not have to follow it.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I wish they had been more direct with their wording , farmers are cleary reading it different to seed merchants

 

[Samcowman]

That's part of the voluntary guidance. The aim is not to sow a herbal ley. It is to provide varied root structures.

I know it's wishy washy, but if that's the way they want to play it....

Exactly my point. There is no where it says you have to have x or y despite what a seed company will try to sell.
Everyone’s context is different.
I will be planting SAM3 this spring instead of barley and it won’t be having the same diversity as the guidance, not too far off though, but they will all grow and be productive and have a varied root structure to improve the soil which coincides my aims and the RPAs aims.

 

[som farmer]

merchants sell to make a living, and lets be honest, looking at the list of ingredients in that mix, no-one can argue its not SAM3,
but it is over and beyond what the rules suggest.

 

[hally]

There are no rules but this is there advice , you be lucky to find a seed merchant that will issue a Sam3 ticket with anything less , but for a few quid an acre why would you take the risk

5 species of grass, such as cocksfoot, festulolium, meadow fescue, perennial ryegrass, smooth-stalked meadow grass, tall fescue and timothy

3 species of legumes, such as bird’s-foot-trefoil, lucerne, red clover, sainfoin winter vetch and common vetch, and black medick

5 species of herbs, such as burnet, chicory, ribwort plantain and yarrow

The sam3 option is for overseeding herbs/legumes. If your grass is young and productive why would you put in anything more?

 

[hally]

Have you found a seed company that will stamp a Ticket Sam 3 or are you going to go alone with it

There is no such thing as a specific Sam3 mix as the criteria are so vague, so why would any seed company put sam3 on their label? The mix is dependent on what the customer wants, some will embrace the gs4 type mix, some are merely going through the motions for the sfi money and as such want the bare minimum herbs and legumes.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

The sam3 option is for overseeding herbs/legumes. If your grass is young and productive why would you put in anything more?

Like I said it's so confusing
Their advice says 5 species of grass ,
Why then give advice if no one has to follow it
Don't shoot the messenger, I've been growing those simple herbal leys for years and supply a lot of them ,especially to sheep farmers, if it will pass for Sam 3 all the better
Just to add which I expect you already know , Sam 3 covers overseeding as well as a full resseed

 

[Derrick Hughes]

There is no such thing as a specific Sam3 mix as the criteria are so vague, so why would any seed company put sam3 on their label? The mix is dependent on what the customer wants, some will embrace the gs4 type mix, some are merely going through the motions for the sfi money and as such want the bare minimum herbs and legumes.

You tell me , that's what I was told yesterday by two suppliers ,but if its anything like the Welsh Sam 3 in which the rules are cast iron ,if you haven't got the correct seed labels then forget it
But Wales in in a world of its own as we know

 

[som farmer]

I haven’t priced it up this year so far (has been eyewatering the past couple of years so have been tweaking the mix as it was heading up past £140/ac). Have used Cotswold for 20+years - occasionally have priced up elsewhere but not significantly cheaper.
Can afford expensive seeds especially if I’m being paid SAM3 rates for it (as I’ve already got it over most of the farm).
The vetch makes it ‘spensive but I need it to get bulk as I silage it in about August (3or4 months after sowing).

just got out my trusty Cotswold seed catalogue

their GS4/SAM3 mixes are from£76.22/ac to £83.53/ac

with 2 over seeding mixes £59.74 to £46.53

so big difference to £140+ ac, vetch per kg, isn't dear either

they do a simple to full herbal leys, £79.08 to £105.30, but don't specify GS4/SAM3 on the blurp

thought might cause some discussion by posting the prices, might even make some sharpen their pencil a bit.

 

[som farmer]

You tell me , that's what I was told yesterday by two suppliers ,but if its anything like the Welsh Sam 3 in which the rules are cast iron ,if you haven't got the correct seed labels then forget it
But Wales in in a world of its own as we know

you get what you vote for

but l reckon you have got a bum deal from your politicians

 

[hally]

You tell me , that's what I was told yesterday by two suppliers ,but if its anything like the Welsh Sam 3 in which the rules are cast iron ,if you haven't got the correct seed labels then forget it
But Wales in in a world of its own as we know

Yep certainly the Welsh version seems a lot stricter

 

[YELROM]

This is what they now recommend for a sam3 mix