Hindsight
Member
- Location
- Lincolnshire
You are the king of oxymorons!
Why do you not read the Guidance pages 27-29. A clear explanation is stated on page 29. Copy of guidance attached for you.
Sam 3
- Thread starter onthehoof
- Start date
You are the king of oxymorons!
Why do you not read the Guidance pages 27-29. A clear explanation is stated on page 29. Copy of guidance attached for you.
- Location
- Ceredigion
If you’re rotating this action around your farm, each year of your SFI agreement you must
do it for a period of time that could reasonably be expected to achieve this action’s ai
do it for a period of time that could reasonably be expected to achieve this action’s ai
Hindsight
Member
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Yep. Personally I would consider that to be a period between 9-12 months. So an Autumn establishment through to the following late Summer. But I have seen others post on here about shorter periods, in effect using the option as, in effect, a higher paying catch crop, when SAM2 would be more appropriate option, in my opinion. SImilar, in my opinion to use of AHL2 sown in late July / early August. But as ever it is each to their own and it will be upto the individual to argue there case. Problem for me is I am an adviser and I carry Professional Indemnity insurance and this lack of clarity in this Defra scheme is testing the bounds of cover, thus I am cautious until we see Defra implement the scheme on the ground, which is probably some months /years away.
- Location
- Lincolnshire
I’ve been thinking.
I’ve some hilly land prone to erosion if cultivated. I’ve direct drilled it a few times but the clay gets tighter and tighter.
So I’ve decided to grass it down.
I thought about herbal leys but they aren’t long lived, so I’m told and I dint really want to be reestablishing them every 2 or 3 years with the risk of further erosion and failure to take, diesel burnt etc.
Permanent pasture would be better. But it would attract much less funding, £100 an acre less even with clover in it.
How can this penalty for PP as against a herbal ley be right when the best option for carbon and erosion and indeed productivity would be reversion to PP?
Maybe I’d be better to go for mid tier arable reversion to low input grassland.£400 to £500 per ha?
I’ve some hilly land prone to erosion if cultivated. I’ve direct drilled it a few times but the clay gets tighter and tighter.
So I’ve decided to grass it down.
I thought about herbal leys but they aren’t long lived, so I’m told and I dint really want to be reestablishing them every 2 or 3 years with the risk of further erosion and failure to take, diesel burnt etc.
Permanent pasture would be better. But it would attract much less funding, £100 an acre less even with clover in it.
How can this penalty for PP as against a herbal ley be right when the best option for carbon and erosion and indeed productivity would be reversion to PP?
Maybe I’d be better to go for mid tier arable reversion to low input grassland.£400 to £500 per ha?
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Hindsight
Member
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Goodness DrW you really do complicate issues! And overthink compared to what I see as most SFI applicants just getting on to grab the cash while it is there. To address your comment. Surely your Herbal Ley will overtime become Permanent Pasture. Just select the appropriate grasses for the mix with longevity, so long term Fescues, bit of late PRG, some Timothy - several folk on here far better knowledge than me (I have zero). You are doing your self out of £383 versus £151. I cannot see the money being there for late comers to the party as all I see is bigger payments than BPS forgeone. Hey ho. wait your next deliberation with interest. Cheers.
- Location
- Ceredigion
Most of the Herbal stuff ive been selling over the years , have been long term leys , most stuff will survive , the few that dont you can oveseed back in after 3 ir 4 years if you wish
Just need to choose stuff that suits your heavier land
There has been a lot saying that the mixes are being made to complicated , but this gives the mix flexibility so it can be built around the indevidual farm , so should be seen as an advantage
Just need to choose stuff that suits your heavier land
There has been a lot saying that the mixes are being made to complicated , but this gives the mix flexibility so it can be built around the indevidual farm , so should be seen as an advantage
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- Location
- Lincolnshire
I think people need to be careful. Lambs are presently selling for £150+.
We normally stock 4 ewes to the acre so 8 lambs. Would be quite easy to lose the production of 2 lambs per acre by messing about with seed mixes and wiping out the SFI payment, that’s assuming the inspector even signs off the payment.
Fair enough if you are only interested in claiming payments and aren’t too bothered about production then carry on but as somebody who relies on maximising production to earn a living off a small farm I have my doubts about some of these wheezes.
We normally stock 4 ewes to the acre so 8 lambs. Would be quite easy to lose the production of 2 lambs per acre by messing about with seed mixes and wiping out the SFI payment, that’s assuming the inspector even signs off the payment.
Fair enough if you are only interested in claiming payments and aren’t too bothered about production then carry on but as somebody who relies on maximising production to earn a living off a small farm I have my doubts about some of these wheezes.
Hindsight
Member
- Location
- Lincolnshire
NUM2 is the one for you then DrW. Legumes in Grass. Medium / Long term late heading Ryegrass with Clover - the Clover Ley you have talked about. Half the BPS payment. Looking at a few seed houses SAM3 mixes they look an awful lot like that and I have half a suspicion there is a seedsman commercial eye not wanting to miss the folk who like the idea of £383 hectare but aren't that concerned about a few herbs, don't mind a bit of Clover and want a predominately Ryegrass long teem ley. The seed invoice and seeds label will have SAM3 in BOLD type.
Here's one
https://www.cotswoldseeds.com/produ... of ryegrass is,variety performs in the field.
- Location
- Ceredigion
Sheep farmers buy more herbal stuff than anyone else in farming ,sheep do wondeful on them
But you are a TFF handle? Keep wheezing Dr...
- Location
- Northumberland
- Location
- Ceredigion
Herbal leys do contain a lot of Ryegrass yes , but as long as you not go overboard there is nothing wrong in doing that
- Location
- somerset
if you use a lot of N, the ryegrass will shade out the herbs, they don't like N in quantity.
this is what we DON'T know, fert use. While it is claimed, h/leys do not need any N, that coming from the legumous element of the mix, we do know that for clover to produce max N, soil microbiology etc, has to be correct. And l would assume a lot of soil is not. We are thinking a light early application, will help.
there are a lot of 'claims' made about what h/leys will do, that may differ, from what they actually do.
Medicinal properties, not a clue.
They certainly grow in a dry spell, when ryegrasses stop.
l would think they improve soil structure, but if we continually go over it, with heavy kit, silageing, we compound the issue.
cattle do like them, and milk, or grow on them. Cannot see any reason why they cannot be silaged, wrap, only if the stems are 'pliable', otherwise, might pierce the wrap. Hay, not sure l would even want to try, to many plants at different stages, and constant turning, would lead to leaf loss.
it is a very different management, to prg/clover leys, and a plate meter doesn't give the true amounts. You need a different mindset, to manage them. Perhaps the biggest change, is in grazing management, rotational, with longer recovery periods is the best we have found. But, there doesn't seem to be a drop off in feed value. We are on 35+ days recovery, with no noticeable drop in milk yield. Set stocking, not sure its going to 'work', cattle will graze out the herbs, by choice.
- Location
- Ceredigion
Most of my work is trail work on the farm here , but we don't pussy foot about , the Herbal leys are mannage the same as the Ryegrass leys ,be interesting to see how they do this year
- Location
- Northumberland
In my experience the nitrogen from clover only really materialises when it's too late ie the ground needs to be hungry before the microbes get to work. Still trying, though, and think it's useful for building a bit of grass over winter (provided no sheep) but really can't afford to wait for it in prime season.
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- Location
- Lincolnshire
Have any trials been done comparing the output of a herbal ley compared to that of a tradional ryegrass ley for grazing sheep?
The things that concern me about herbal leys are sward length and low nutritional (in fact) detrimental effect of some of the “herbs”.
Sheep like grass length just over the toes of your boots not the kind of tall rank flowering seedy vegetation you see in the brochures which might be good for pollinators but has often lost its sugars and proteins. With some of the herbs being annuals in some of the mixes I can’t see them being around for more than a year.
Anyway I guess the best way to find out is to try some but I’ve 60 acres of heavy hilly land to put in with something and my gut says a decent tradional mix of ryegrasses and a small white clover for sheep. I want to leave it down for as long as possible as last time we established it, it took three attempts on the heaviest ground. Wish we’d never ploughed it back up to be honest. It fed ewes and lambs like rocket fuel.
The things that concern me about herbal leys are sward length and low nutritional (in fact) detrimental effect of some of the “herbs”.
Sheep like grass length just over the toes of your boots not the kind of tall rank flowering seedy vegetation you see in the brochures which might be good for pollinators but has often lost its sugars and proteins. With some of the herbs being annuals in some of the mixes I can’t see them being around for more than a year.
Anyway I guess the best way to find out is to try some but I’ve 60 acres of heavy hilly land to put in with something and my gut says a decent tradional mix of ryegrasses and a small white clover for sheep. I want to leave it down for as long as possible as last time we established it, it took three attempts on the heaviest ground. Wish we’d never ploughed it back up to be honest. It fed ewes and lambs like rocket fuel.
- Location
- Ceredigion
Think you are back to front , a good herbal ley will know spots of a grass ley for nutrition, energy and protien , my last herbal ley silage cut late on did over18% Protein, there really is so much miss information about herbal leys , what do small Welsh farmers who rave about them know , something a lot don't,
In new zealand they call Semi Herbal stuff Rocket Fuel
TREES???
- Location
- Ceredigion
Short Term
Sam3 FSI
Quick Establishment High Yield for Cutting
50% Lemnos Westerwolds
10% Meribel Italian Ryegrass
10% Lofa Festulolium
7% Timothy
3% Cocksfoot
3% Crimson ,
4% Balansa,
4% Berseem,
8.15% Vetch
0.30 Chicory
0.40 Plantain
0.05 Yarrow
0.05 Burnet
0.05 Sheeps Parsley
12 kilo per acre
Sam3 FSI
Quick Establishment High Yield for Cutting
50% Lemnos Westerwolds
10% Meribel Italian Ryegrass
10% Lofa Festulolium
7% Timothy
3% Cocksfoot
3% Crimson ,
4% Balansa,
4% Berseem,
8.15% Vetch
0.30 Chicory
0.40 Plantain
0.05 Yarrow
0.05 Burnet
0.05 Sheeps Parsley
12 kilo per acre
Why is that 2tractors? We have put all out PP into SAM3 this year, and Having taken advise on it "improved" means it has had something fert or sprays or some kind of improvement in the last 15 years. Or have I missed something here? What do you know that I don't??