Scottish Sub Calving index 410 days

[ringi]

If you’re bulling all heifers are you in a massive expansion phase, or do you have a massive replacement rate?

Rather than selecting the heifers to cull (not put to bull) before knowing if they are good mothers, it moves the selection for culling until you know more about the heifers. In a low-input system, with outdoor overwintering, selling a culled heifer after 1st birth gives about the same profit as not putting the heifer to the bull as can still be sold while under 36 months old.

Moves replacement selection from "like the looks" towards "is not the worse mother".

 

[capfits]

I was thinking about this thread this morning when out and about feeding cattle in a shed whilst it was raining outside.
The initial think that came to mind funnily enough was the BSE years. Why you make ask and I dare say the young ones will have no idea of the impact.
Well for me it involved soldering on with cows that fell back in CI 2 titter, pendulous bags, poor feet and the desire to have every bleeding cow good or bad in calf.
It was crap pattern was horrible, older rubbish cows bullied younger productive cows, more calves were at the poorer end of performance scale prone to issues. Proper rubbish when you look back. I knocked out more cows with Johnes than I did with infertility. Quality of life suffered as a result because the sole thought was the calf being alive and not subsequent performance.
Why was that you may ask, well simply cows were worth nothing whereas replacements and live calves were. Young uns ask your forebears why that was.

Move onto now cows are worth money but then so is everything you need to make it happen. If you have a highish cost system high number system such as we have, with good technical performance then its pretty clear we have to take into account all costs to thrive, buildings,machinary,labour and finance.
Even lower cost operations cannot fail to see the issue of carrying passengers and is arguably at more of a threat from poor performers.

Improving your CI will all help tighten up your cost and efficiencies as has the programmes to eliminate BVD and Johnes has. In those instances keeping that odd "pet carrier" cow was doing no favours and plenty did.

Remember our scope for expansion is nothing compared to many of the players in the beef sector. In Brazil cows used to kept as a hedge against inflation. Argentina has crap infrastructure and huge political uncertainties. These are their inefficiencies ours are of our own making.

Perhaps future thread maybe started to look at cull policies and drivers in herds going forward. I think it would be quiet telling and have a strong correlation in terms of physical and financial performance.

All the best over Easter weekend.

 

[Agrivator]

It's maybe time the governments leased farms from owners like they do with schools, hospitals etc, then they could pay farmers to work for them and run the farms in an efficient manner similar to the schools hospitals, council infrastructure like roads etc!
Oh hang it's maybe not a good example of efficiency!

But would they be able to do it if the farmers could only work between 9am and 4.45pm. and half day Friday.

And what would our pension scheme look like. And holidays, And high-viz jackets and hard hats.

 

[unlacedgecko]

2+3 cows.. Does this mean 2 calves by the age of three? I am doing pretty much the same here, but no bought in heifers and any stressy heifers will not be bred.

Yes.

I also cull on temperament.

 

[unlacedgecko]

If you’re bulling all heifers are you in a massive expansion phase, or do you have a massive replacement rate?

Both

 

[puppet]

Analysis of Scoteid/bcms data has shown that the larger herds tend to have much lower calving intervals than the small herds. This is likely to be down to the fact that several bulls will be used in larger herds. Also there will be lot more chance of "good" cows being given a second chance and run round in small pedigree herds.

The larger herds also had higher heifer replacements and 30 day mortality rates.
The SRUC study throws up lots of interesting facts though it only looked at registered calves. If the dead at births were added the CI would come down as it is the few very late calvers which drags the CI up.

 

[unlacedgecko]

Fertility is only part of the puzzle.

Docility, weight, performance, pelvic size, feet, locomotion, skeletal and muscular characteristics, myostatin carried/not carried, dams/sire milk, dam udder and teat presentation, muzzle width and so on and on.

You absolutely need to know the cows your replacements are coming from in my own opinion.

Just buying in something that is the correct weight and breed will invite it's own issues

All of that is encapsulated in what I'm doing.

 

[tepapa]

These are all first calved homebred heifers. All calved at 22-24 months and the whole bunch calved within 28 days of one another. However, I had one slip right at the start after we rotovac'd them. She was a heifer from one of my best cows that we'd had for a long time that routinely bred the smartest, heaviest calves. She is the only heifer we have by her and incidentally was her last calf so I wanted her genetics in the herd and this heifer is/was the last chance to do so. I've decided to run her round. Am I wrong to do so?! Maybe. And I might get shot down for it but sometimes the ruthless, efficiency and data driven decision making is all just a bit soulless. I'm all for keeping an eye on costs etc but at the end of the day I genuinely think there's a bit more to it than that.

View attachment 1172493

This is the conundrum with gecko's knife policy.

That one heifers genetics might be what suits your farm. The heifer herself may never pay her way in her lifetime, only covering the cost of that one unproductive year.

But if her future progeny remain and perform in the herd then you could justify keeping her for no financial gain as long as her genetics prosper in future years.

 

[Nenuphar]

All of that is encapsulated in what I'm doing.

The purchasing of replacements is the fly in the ointment. Doesn't make sense and undermines everything

 

[ringi]

The larger herds also had higher heifer replacements and 30 day mortality rates.
The SRUC study throws up lots of interesting facts though it only looked at registered calves. If the dead at births were added the CI would come down as it is the few very late calvers which drags the CI up.

Maybe the larger herds are quicker at registering calves so more of their calves that die in 1st 30 days have been registered.

 

[ladycrofter]

Be interesting to see what IAE and Ritchie's production projections are for feed barriers, crushes and feed rings for late 2024 -25. They have potentially a lot to lose if folk say stuff it and new entrants are deterred.

If so, sale prices for stock rise and then everybody's at the machinery sales trying to buy cattle steel back . The great livestock pendulum.

 

[ringi]

The purchasing of replacements is the fly in the ointment. Doesn't make sense and undermines everything

Not if the replacements are only being bought for few years until there is enough home produced heifers to produce the calves to pay the rent. If the replacements are brought as weened calves they are likely to make a profit if need to be sold as a cull under 36 months.

 

[digger64]

I had a dead full term calf once because of a stupid wee vet. Didn't know what she was doing. I phoned the boss but it was too late by the time he got there. She was gone within a week and I had an apology. Still had a dead calf tho.
So what would the sh!t for brains at Scot Gov do with that one?? A good cow too.

is it a good cow if it needed a vet ?

 

[digger64]

why ? You carry the cow for two years, but only have 1 calf to set against what that cow has eaten, vet med, sundries etc. And l doubt the calf value, will pay for that, therefore that cow is a substantial negative cost, to the enterprise.

there may be a few reasons to carry her round, but not many, esp with the cull price at £4+ dw

the age of the cow/known issues and the potential cull value versus the opportunity sale value of a 14 month heifer with no known issues , cull cows value easily match or exceed heifers value nowadays .

 

[unlacedgecko]

the age of the cow/known issues and the potential cull value versus the opportunity sale value of a 14 month heifer with no known issues , cull cows value easily match or exceed heifers value nowadays .

Once bred heifer system?

 

[unlacedgecko]

The purchasing of replacements is the fly in the ointment. Doesn't make sense and undermines everything

When you see what I started with and what I'm buying in, it makes perfect sense.

 

[Cowgirl]

So if I have understood all this correctly, IF we wish to continue to claim,
1 We cannot continue to use AI as we risk going over time (AIed 7 this year, looks like 4 held and 3 held to bull 6 weeks later.) So much for keeping a closed herd for high health reasons.
2 Heifers are exempt until second calf.
3 Any stillborn calves will need need to be tagged and registered.
4 A cow that lost a calf last year but is in calf again won’t be penalised next year provided live calf within 410 days.
5 We need to make sure bulls go in with cows as soon as possible after calving (rather than at present choosing time for our convenience.)
Sorted. Is it worth it?
Apparently this scheme was introduced in response to an SRUC study by an academic, by politicians who are not farmers, without consulting actual farmers. Has anyone read the actual paper, or got a reference?

 

[puppet]

So if I have understood all this correctly, IF we wish to continue to claim,
1 We cannot continue to use AI as we risk going over time (AIed 7 this year, looks like 4 held and 3 held to bull 6 weeks later.) So much for keeping a closed herd for high health reasons.
2 Heifers are exempt until second calf.
3 Any stillborn calves will need need to be tagged and registered.
4 A cow that lost a calf last year but is in calf again won’t be penalised next year provided live calf within 410 days.
5 We need to make sure bulls go in with cows as soon as possible after calving (rather than at present choosing time for our convenience.)
Sorted. Is it worth it?
Apparently this scheme was introduced in response to an SRUC study by an academic, by politicians who are not farmers, without consulting actual farmers. Has anyone read the actual paper, or got a reference?

Easy to find. SRUC calving interval study

 

[digger64]

Maybe, but in my experience when you select for specific traits you will tend to have problems in other areas. It’s the law of unintended consequences.

If I had to do the stuff what some others on here apparently appear to do routinely with their cows I would not have cows . It would not be on physically ,mentally or financially . Also the existing infrastructure (very little ) would be untenable .

 

[Cowgirl]

Easy to find. SRUC calving interval study

Just being lazy! Will have a look.