Very trueYes every action has a reaction , and yet we do the same every year and get different results due to outside factors it’s part of the joys of our profession
Scottish Sub Calving index 410 days
- Thread starter unlacedgecko
- Start date
I am an absolute advocate of =genetic selection, albeit mostly via stockmans eye and clunky ear notch/paint mark work in ewes, and basic records checks/stockman recollections (IE mine, and the boys) in cattle.
But there is far more to life at this edge than relying on that.
Last year I lost a tonne of lambs to- we think- loupin ill.
If I killed every hill ewe that didn't bring a lamb home to wean, firstly I would have a lot less ewes, secondly, I'd have killed the ones that it's been through.
Worse, if I'd tried to replace losses, I'd be worse off than I started.
I've got some family lines off coo who perform brilliantly-for me- but which throw up the odd nasty little shitbag, who'll try and kill me.
They're often the best performing of all....do you think I'd only select on performance there?
It's all far more nuanced, I reckon.
- Location
- Highland
Simple as - no one really wants to keep a cow that can't get in calf on the 2nd or 3rd cycle after calving. I had a few consistently on the first, a calf every 11 months. But only when I finally kept back a couple of bull calves and one made the grade.
So you're AI'ing, miss the catch because you are a crofter and actually have another job, and the cow goes past the limit. What then? I can tell you . . .
This is just another way to clear the Highlands, the SNP's end game. They hate crofters. They hate landowners too and yet they have designed a sub so perverse that it rewards people with large herds and full-time farmers, or full time staff. I'd wager most of the cattle up here are on crofts and small farms, where farming is not full time.
Like me initially, I expect most rely on AI. Or at a push, borrowing a bull when, if, they can get one ( not me, wouldn't risk disease issues). They'll start missing the target by a cycle or two, and have to give up without the sub. Or someone dies because they think they can manage a full time bull on the croft.
Perhaps I'm wrong.
So you're AI'ing, miss the catch because you are a crofter and actually have another job, and the cow goes past the limit. What then? I can tell you . . .
This is just another way to clear the Highlands, the SNP's end game. They hate crofters. They hate landowners too and yet they have designed a sub so perverse that it rewards people with large herds and full-time farmers, or full time staff. I'd wager most of the cattle up here are on crofts and small farms, where farming is not full time.
Like me initially, I expect most rely on AI. Or at a push, borrowing a bull when, if, they can get one ( not me, wouldn't risk disease issues). They'll start missing the target by a cycle or two, and have to give up without the sub. Or someone dies because they think they can manage a full time bull on the croft.
Perhaps I'm wrong.
- Location
- Buxton, Derbyshire
How about this one @unlacedgecko
In a breed I'm involved with the National show champion is a cow born in Feb 2017, her first registered calf was born March 2021 (so she was 4yrs 1mth), her second calf was registered Jan 2023 (a 22mth CI)! Either she's been unlucky and had 2/3 dead calves in that time or she has crap fertility.
Either way in my book she should have gone long ago, even though I'm pedigree and show as well, but she got National Champion so her owners probably feel justified in running her on.
- Location
- Fife
Should have had her head off by Feb 2020.
A lot of these show ponies do have fertility problems, a lot down to the over feeding that goes on to get them in show condition. I will avoid a bull that’s been on the show circuit like the plague.
- Location
- central scotland
But showing is just a hobby, same as going to the theatre it has very little correlation to the real commercial world….. oh and we go to a lot of shows
- Location
- Buxton, Derbyshire
Agreed! Doesn't do the breed many favours when their national champion only calves every other year!
Not always, my show heifer who won multiple Interbreeds held 1st service to sexed semen. But yes I won't buy a show bull.
Showing is a hobby for me, but the cows are my main source of income first.But showing is just a hobby, same as going to the theatre it has very little correlation to the real commercial world….. oh and we go to a lot of shows
Aspiring Peasants
Member
- Location
- North Pennines
You need to factor in the cost of the replacement as well. The replacement is likely to cost more than the cull cow value and if she's empty can be kept for less than one with a calf? I don't like prescriptive systems, I think you have to make a judgement based on a lot of factors. For instance in your example above if the empty cow consistently produces calves that are worth £100 below you're average then I would probably let her go. If she produces calves worth £100 more and she's young then I would have second thoughts.
Aspiring Peasants
Member
- Location
- North Pennines
The weather has a huge affect.Very true
- Location
- sw scotland
Agree that you should take some credit for management. Our easiest calving was a very late Spring when we had to ration silage to last, cows looked thin but calved well as the grass appeared.
Same in summer that September cows need the barest field or calves too big
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Aspiring Peasants
Member
- Location
- North Pennines
I don't want any credit
, I get plenty wrong I'm sure, it's just observation and finding what works, I think that there is a lot more to it than just one simple factor and every farm is differentsheepwise
Member
- Location
- SW Scotland
Good points there. The good thing about the scheme is that the budget has been retained so if there is a drop in the total number of eligible calves then the rate per calf will be higher. There is no doubt efficient calving herds will benefit but there is still the possibility that even with a few ineligible calves, a herds total payment could be similar.
- Location
- Black Isle
This is messing up my plans a bit. So I currently run 120 spring calvers 10th March to May calving. Have had 50% calf in 3 weeks so by the last cycle there isn’t that many but they currently will fall inside the scheme ok.
I also have autumn calvers from end of September to end of November. For years now I have culled pretty much everything that doesn’t hold in calf on their cycle, an odd thing has slipped round if there has been a good reason. Twins for example.
Due to a planned restructuring after my full time worker left this spring I only ran the bull with the autumn calvers for 6 weeks. Intending to shorten the autumn calving and add the not in calve ones to the spring herd. From 60 bulled there was only about 6 to slip around, 4 to fatten.
Delighted to have such a short calving to look forward too I also had decided I would shorten the spring calving and try and bring it forward by 1-2 weeks. I would anticipate a lot more empty doing this which for a year I’d allow to join the autumn herd.
So under this new rules I’m effectively going to be financially punished for tightening up my calving patterns and being more efficient.
!!!
I also have a few pedigree Charolais cows who are a different level of inefficiency but will just have to live with them if want to produce the odd decent home grown bull.
Does anyone know if a cow is eligible once she falls under the 410 day CI again or is it a case of once broken can’t be claimed again ever?!
I also have autumn calvers from end of September to end of November. For years now I have culled pretty much everything that doesn’t hold in calf on their cycle, an odd thing has slipped round if there has been a good reason. Twins for example.
Due to a planned restructuring after my full time worker left this spring I only ran the bull with the autumn calvers for 6 weeks. Intending to shorten the autumn calving and add the not in calve ones to the spring herd. From 60 bulled there was only about 6 to slip around, 4 to fatten.
Delighted to have such a short calving to look forward too I also had decided I would shorten the spring calving and try and bring it forward by 1-2 weeks. I would anticipate a lot more empty doing this which for a year I’d allow to join the autumn herd.
So under this new rules I’m effectively going to be financially punished for tightening up my calving patterns and being more efficient.
!!!
I also have a few pedigree Charolais cows who are a different level of inefficiency but will just have to live with them if want to produce the odd decent home grown bull.
Does anyone know if a cow is eligible once she falls under the 410 day CI again or is it a case of once broken can’t be claimed again ever?!
- Location
- sw scotland
If you calved in February then wanted to move to April/May to take advantage of grass, so lower straw and concentrates - all lowering your carbon inputs - then you will lose most of your payments for a year. This is one of the unintended consequences.
We have had 2 sub-fertile bulls with 15 empty cows so as a double whammy will also lose the payments as they slip 4 months into the Autumn batch even though our average CI is 370 days so pretty efficient. Didn't want to sell and replace 15 cows at one shot.
All this is about worshipping the false God of Methane and driven by SRUC studies and some farmers who are advising Scottish Government. Certainly isn't via NFUS livestock Committee who have been pressing for common sense.
The payment is to support suckler cows. If some farmers choose to keep cows longer then that is their (daft) business choice but they should still be paid. On high hills getting everything to calve every 2 years is a challenge. Removing this payment will just be another nail in hill suckler cows coffin.
The number of twins born to suckler cows in Scotland is going to decline massively. Nearly every live twin will be registered to a cow that has lost her calf around calving.
And you don't even need to have Irish ancestry to realise that. Or to know that calves born dead or dying soon after calving in Jan, Feb, March, are easier to keep lying in state for 30 days than the same calves born in hotter months.
And you don't even need to have Irish ancestry to realise that. Or to know that calves born dead or dying soon after calving in Jan, Feb, March, are easier to keep lying in state for 30 days than the same calves born in hotter months.
- Location
- Scotland
What is your CI with the AYR calving? And how many weeks do the cows get with a bull?
livestock 1
Member
Cows get the chance of the bull for 365 CI under 365 days
- Location
- sw scotland
It is looking like the money will be set for 5 years so the payment per calf will rise. Risky to start meddling with parentage. Some Limousin breeders tried that.
Huge penalties for the sake of £100