slugs and direct drilling

[Clive]

No, but wheat after grass can be hammered by them, it's nearly as bad as after rape some years, maybe worse as it is normally November before I plough it up so the wheat is slow growing.
Dont be fooled into thinking a grass ley is perfectly in balance, it isn't, it's just there is lots for them to eat in comparison to a fresh planted crop. Someone who's got dairy could no doubt tell you the amount of freshweight per acre. it will be massive. New seeded leys have been wiped out by slugs here too.

but "after" grass you will have destroyed the structure, consolidation and if cultivated probably killed a lot of wildlife doing so

Are slugs a big issue after grass if zero-tilled ?

 

[Badshot]

but "after" grass you will have destroyed the structure, consolidation and if cultivated probably killed a lot of wildlife doing so

Are slugs a big issue after grass if zero-tilled ?

I've only done it once with a crop many years ago, and that was linseed dd'd with a Moore into grass, it needed pelleting in may when it was planted. The other times had been grass with Moore back into grass, and it had failed as often as succeeded, with pellets applied.
The difference in a grass field is there will be tonnes? of grass per acre, even if it's short, whereas in a newly planted crop there will be a few cwt of seed per acre and a few shoots ripe for eating.
The only other crops I've seen dd into grass have failed due to the two simons theory I believe.
I did go and see a trial field at the weekend where half was Claydon drilled and half 750 drilled, the Claydon half appears better at the moment with a more consistent plant count.

 

[shakerator]

What would happen in a grass field? Although that probably does respire more than a cereal or oilseed crop.

Maybe we need more plants in our crops?

it would work well

as im sure DD into some 8 yr miscanthus stubble next door

just think clay needs as many years perennial as annual

we used to grow grass for british clorypyl and had no blackgrass & less drainage issue

 

[SilliamWhale]

lit would work wel

as im sure DD into some 8 yr miscanthus stubble next door

just think clay needs as many years perennial as annual

we used to grow grass for british clorypyl and had no blackgrass & less drainage issue

And whats the main reason? not enough rooting on the annuals?

 

[shakerator]

And whats the main reason? not enough rooting on the annuals?

I guess when forage is cut or any perennial the root architecture is still living, wicking away moisture from that moment. Even broadcasting covers before harvest (eg cereal scenescence) won't be enough to balance the water equation on clay IMHO as early seedlings needs so little?

Pasture cropping? Smaller fields with trees in? Permaculture/ productive hedgerows? food forests? Or just let blackgrass seed itself out of existence for a couple of years (british chlorophyll the finest slender foxtail goodness)

 

[SilliamWhale]

I guess when forage is cut or any perennial the root architecture is still living, wicking away moisture from that moment. Even broadcasting covers before harvest (eg cereal scenescence) won't be enough to balance the water equation on clay IMHO as early seedlings needs so little?

Pasture cropping? Smaller fields with trees in? Permaculture/ productive hedgerows? food forests? Or just let blackgrass seed itself out of existence for a couple of years (british chlorophyll the finest slender foxtail goodness)

Or maybe - seed thicker?

 

[shakerator]

Or maybe - seed thicker?

?

 

[shakerator]

I think the answer is stock (I won't do the work though)

 

[shakerator]

Or maybe - seed thicker?

Vol OSR is a great water pump if well fertilised (N salts draw the water into the roots)

 

[SilliamWhale]

Vol OSR is a great water pump if well fertilised (N salts draw the water into the roots)

I've only just sprayed off the volunteer beans from this years wheat. I had to do it as they were getting too strong but the certainly have contributed to the mix.

I think when I grow winter barley after WW I do feel I could do with another plant to do something else for a bit. I wish I had a bit of blackgrass to do that job here you lucky boy!

 

[Clive]

I did go and see a trial field at the weekend where half was Claydon drilled and half 750 drilled, the Claydon half appears better at the moment with a more consistent plant count.

not at all surprised at that, I see this myself, 750a crops look as good as any just after establishment then as temps drop and N runs short (due to no mineralization) they look like they are suffering all winter

come spring and some N again and they soon catch back up

as an old boy said to me once - there is only one day that how a crop looks matters and thats the day you take a combine through the gate !

 

[Badshot]

not at all surprised at that, I see this myself, 750a crops look as good as any just after establishment then as temps drop and N runs short (due to no mineralization) they look like they are suffering all winter

come spring and some N again and they soon catch back up

as an old boy said to me once - there is only one day that how a crop looks matters and thats the day you take a combine through the gate !

I'm not sure you understood that comment, the percentage establishment is higher with the Claydon, why? I have no idea but the two drills were in the field at the same time. I wasn't suggesting the plants were smaller, they just aren't there when counted. It was into a sprayed off grass ley.

 

[Clive]

I'm not sure you understood that comment, the percentage establishment is higher with the Claydon, why? I have no idea but the two drills were in the field at the same time. I wasn't suggesting the plants were smaller, they just aren't there when counted. It was into a sprayed off grass ley.

interesting, maybe some more evidence to support the 2 Simons theory ? Simon has said he things the Claydon front tine works better as a row cleaner than a pan buster

 

[Badshot]

interesting, maybe some more evidence to support the 2 Simons theory ? Simon has said he things the Claydon front tine works better as a row cleaner than a pan buster

Possibly, I will be seeing it through the season, I'll ask the owner if he minds me putting some photos up. If I remember to take my phone next time.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I think the answer is stock (I won't do the work though)

Even if you could keep the same yield output of grain + the stock? We've discussed this before I think?

 

[Simon C]

Right then, how about this for a theory.

I spoke to two different conventional farmers last week, both moaning about areas of wheat where they had done at least five applications of pellets and the plants were still getting hammered. I have had the same thing in the past and people on here talk about this quite often. It seems that once you start with Metaldehyde on bad areas, there is no end, although you get a kill, more and more slugs just keep coming back.

It's as if the pellets are making the problem worse, but until now I have not had a clue why this could be. The idea that they keep laying eggs and generations follow one after the other doesn't seem a good enough explanation to me.

Two possible reasons, or perhaps both-

When it rains, slug pellets break down and the metaldehyde dissolves into the soil solution (we know this because it shows up straight away in drainage water) where it could possibly do all sorts of damage to beneficial bacteria and fungi. Then apply this to Frederic's idea that slugs are natures way of cleaning up plant matter in the absence of soil life and you can see what will happen. Perhaps @drummer_bruhaha could tell us what effect metaldehyde has on soil life.

Metaldehyde in the soil water will also be taken up by wheat roots and transferred up into the plant. You need to read "Healthy Crops" to get the idea, he has loads of examples of herbicides and insecticides having an effect on the crop whereby the nutrient balance is upset so that the plants become weakened and unable to resist attack by insects or disease. Sometimes the effected plant are actually more palatable to insects, this is natures way of clearing away weak plants and promoting the healthy ones. It could be that meta in wheat plants is a perfect example of what Chaboussou describes, the chemical which is supposed to cure a problem is actually making it worse.

 

[Badshot]

Right then, how about this for a theory.

I spoke to two different conventional farmers last week, both moaning about areas of wheat where they had done at least five applications of pellets and the plants were still getting hammered. I have had the same thing in the past and people on here talk about this quite often. It seems that once you start with Metaldehyde on bad areas, there is no end, although you get a kill, more and more slugs just keep coming back.

It's as if the pellets are making the problem worse, but until now I have not had a clue why this could be. The idea that they keep laying eggs and generations follow one after the other doesn't seem a good enough explanation to me.

Two possible reasons, or perhaps both-

When it rains, slug pellets break down and the metaldehyde dissolves into the soil solution (we know this because it shows up straight away in drainage water) where it could possibly do all sorts of damage to beneficial bacteria and fungi. Then apply this to Frederic's idea that slugs are natures way of cleaning up plant matter in the absence of soil life and you can see what will happen. Perhaps @drummer_bruhaha could tell us what effect metaldehyde has on soil life.

Metaldehyde in the soil water will also be taken up by wheat roots and transferred up into the plant. You need to read "Healthy Crops" to get the idea, he has loads of examples of herbicides and insecticides having an effect on the crop whereby the nutrient balance is upset so that the plants become weakened and unable to resist attack by insects or disease. Sometimes the effected plant are actually more palatable to insects, this is natures way of clearing away weak plants and promoting the healthy ones. It could be that meta in wheat plants is a perfect example of what Chaboussou describes, the chemical which is supposed to cure a problem is actually making it worse.

As we always seem to have a problem and rarely get away without pellets I can see that meta could be a self perpetuating cure, dine more sluxx than ever before this year now and still the pellets go within a few days, BUT the wheat is winning now after rape so maybe it is the pesky worms taking them after all. Still plenty of dead slugs on the surface after each application though, quite a few laid on their backs, so it can't be a nice death with sluxx.

 

[SilliamWhale]

The less pellets I use the less I need to use. I know no more than that but I have slugs but they just don't seem to be so much of a problem.

 

[shakerator]

I would rather use meta than methio or ferric phos from a toxicity soil life POV

 

[shakerator]

Even if you could keep the same yield output of grain + the stock? We've discussed this before I think?

Yeh I just think I'd need a good stockman or new business relationship as a) I am poorly educated on beef and sheep and b) would prob take eye off the no till ball with day to day rigours