slugs and direct drilling

[SilliamWhale]

Yeh I just think I'd need a good stockman or new business relationship as a) I am poorly educated on beef and sheep and b) would prob take eye off the no till ball with day to day rigours

Can you sell silage and have tack sheep?

 

[shakerator]

Can you sell silage and have tack sheep?

Limited demand. Would like something in house long term. Maybe invest in someone young and keen?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Limited demand. Would like something in house long term. Maybe invest in someone young and keen?

How old are you?

 

[shakerator]

How old are you?

30

 

[Simon Chiles]

No, but wheat after grass can be hammered by them, it's nearly as bad as after rape some years, maybe worse as it is normally November before I plough it up so the wheat is slow growing.
Dont be fooled into thinking a grass ley is perfectly in balance, it isn't, it's just there is lots for them to eat in comparison to a fresh planted crop. Someone who's got dairy could no doubt tell you the amount of freshweight per acre. it will be massive. New seeded leys have been wiped out by slugs here too.

Took a whole farm out of grass last year, some we dd'ed and some we cultivated ( but only very shallow ) and used no slug pellets either last year or this. Have 100% crop on it all. I also didn't use any insecticide as a spray, only as a seed dressing. I can't help thinking that by not upsetting the natural balance has resulted in not having a problem with slugs. There are some present but damage is non existent , likewise with leatherjackets last spring and wireworms ( did have Austral dressing ) both years.

 

[Desangosse Ltd]

Right then, how about this for a theory.



When it rains, slug pellets break down and the metaldehyde dissolves into the soil solution (we know this because it shows up straight away in drainage water) where it could possibly do all sorts of damage to beneficial bacteria and fungi. Then apply this to Frederic's idea that slugs are natures way of cleaning up plant matter in the absence of soil life and you can see what will happen. Perhaps @drummer_bruhaha could tell us what effect metaldehyde has on soil life.

Metaldehyde in soil organic matter breaks down very quickly into CO2 (a matter of days). The issue with metaldehyde is the stability of the compound in excessive water, hence why we see the issues when drains are flowing with metaldehyde showing up in raw water.

I completely agree with the theory that slugs are one of natures recyclers, hence when I give a talk, I speak about reducing the population at critical times to allow the crop to grow past the pest pressure. We will never eradicate slugs and in reality we do not want to.

 

[Desangosse Ltd]

Metaldehyde in soil organic matter breaks down very quickly into CO2 (a matter of days). The issue with metaldehyde is the stability of the compound in excessive water, hence why we see the issues when drains are flowing with metaldehyde showing up in raw water.

I completely agree with the theory that slugs are one of natures recyclers, hence when I give a talk, I speak about reducing the population at critical times to allow the crop to grow past the pest pressure. We will never eradicate slugs and in reality we do not want to.

 

[martian]

Does metaldehyde kill the worms that take the pellets down their tunnels? If worms do eat slug eggs, then it would seem sensible not to kill the worms...

 

[Wheatland]

Been reading up on ferric phosphate based slug pellets. It seems there is some evidence that a chelate called EDTA used in this type of pellet is harmful to soil biology, especially earthworms.

Any thoughts on that? Google it

 

[shakerator]

Been reading up on ferric phosphate based slug pellets. It seems there is some evidence that a chelate called EDTA used in this type of pellet is harmful to soil biology, especially earthworms.

Any thoughts on that? Google it

http://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/anyone-else-still-got-slugs.13927/page-2

 

[Simon C]

Been reading up on ferric phosphate based slug pellets. It seems there is some evidence that a chelate called EDTA used in this type of pellet is harmful to soil biology, especially earthworms.

Any thoughts on that? Google it

I haven'y used any meta for three years, just ferric phosphate occasionally and have masses of worms everywhere, so although it mat be true that EDTA is harmful to them, in practice it doesn't seem to make any difference.

 

[Simon C]

Metaldehyde in soil organic matter breaks down very quickly into CO2 (a matter of days). The issue with metaldehyde is the stability of the compound in excessive water, hence why we see the issues when drains are flowing with metaldehyde showing up in raw water.

I completely agree with the theory that slugs are one of natures recyclers, hence when I give a talk, I speak about reducing the population at critical times to allow the crop to grow past the pest pressure. We will never eradicate slugs and in reality we do not want to.

The point is that slug populations seem to come and go and no one has any idea why, talk to any farmer about their experiences and they cannot predict when they will get a problem, or when they don't need to worry. I have had epidemics after beans and even linseed. I've also had loads eating rape volunteers in emerging wheat, then when the rape is all gone, so have the slugs. I would also agree that the longer I have been no-tilling, the less of a problem they have become.

It just seems to me that there is something else going on here that hasn't been worked out yet and I would bet that it is to do with soil biology and plant health.

 

[Desangosse Ltd]

Does metaldehyde kill the worms that take the pellets down their tunnels? If worms do eat slug eggs, then it would seem sensible not to kill the worms...

There are no effects on worms with metaldehyde hence its popularity with DD.

 

[Badshot]

There are no effects on worms with metaldehyde hence its popularity with DD.

Was at a meeting today, there is a water catchment in Sussex that is above the legal limit for meta just from 50 acres being treated. Bit scary.

 

[Clive]

There are no effects on worms with metaldehyde hence its popularity with DD.

why do you think I get far better results from Ferric Phosphate than I ever saw form meta ?

 

[Desangosse Ltd]

The point is that slug populations seem to come and go and no one has any idea why, talk to any farmer about their experiences and they cannot predict when they will get a problem, or when they don't need to worry. I have had epidemics after beans and even linseed. I've also had loads eating rape volunteers in emerging wheat, then when the rape is all gone, so have the slugs. I would also agree that the longer I have been no-tilling, the less of a problem they have become.

It just seems to me that there is something else going on here that hasn't been worked out yet and I would bet that it is to do with soil biology and plant health.

Completely agree - slug pressure is made up of many factors - the main one being the moisture in the soil. Slugs like to lay their eggs the closest to a food source and potential moisture but taking into account threats to the eggs and available shelter (this could be many metres at depth). If we take the average slug count per ha to a depth of 2 metres there are thousands - it does not take a lot to tip the balance from no problem to massive issues - the weather is the main factor in all 4 seasons.

The main species we see as a problem in ag is the grey because of their ability to regenerate many times if the conditions allow.

Great, thought provoking questions..

 

[Desangosse Ltd]

why do you think I get far better results from Ferric Phosphate than I ever saw form meta ?

Chosen pellet quality?

 

[Desangosse Ltd]

Was at a meeting today, there is a water catchment in Sussex that is above the legal limit for meta just from 50 acres being treated. Bit scary.

Yes agree, I am aware of this catchment and investigating the factors involved

 

[Clive]

Chosen pellet quality?

Could be, I used quality meta though as well

Sluxx and detrex now only and use reducing every year (almost zero this year) but probably down to many more factors than active ingredient choice alone

 

[Simon Chiles]

why do you think I get far better results from Ferric Phosphate than I ever saw form meta ?

Trying to remember back to the bad old days of using slug pellets but it's getting so long ago that my memory is getting hazy. However as I recall we also got far better results from Ferric Phosphate than ever we did from meta in any form also.