Tenant farming costs, complete newbie basic questions

James691

Member
Mixed Farmer
Apologies for asking VERY basic questions and I am reading at the same time but could I get an idea of what it may cost for farmland in Lancashire for grazing.
I've seen some figures bouncing about £100/per acre... but no one states what time frame this is, per week, month or year?? I'd be very pleased if it is per year.

There also seems to be other types of agreements FAT etc but not explained in the articles what this stands for or means! As an Ex-Serviceman, I know now what I must sound like speaking to a civilian and explaining where a building is on the camp!

I assume there is another agreement for the farmhouse?

I appreciate that to explain this may be a lot of typing or if anyone could link me to a good article to read on.

I'm looking for a min of about 30 acres, not sure if that impacts the price or the agreement?

Kind regards
James
 

Muddyroads

Member
Location
Devon
£100/acre per year is the likely figure that you’ve been hearing. Will vary a lot depending on location and local demand.
You’ve probably been hearing FBT, Farm Business Tenancy. These will typically be for 5-10 years. The alternative is a grazing license, or grass keep, where it would be for a maximum of 364 days per year.
 

James691

Member
Mixed Farmer
Thank you! So, it's per year, £100 an acre :)
I'm looking around the Preston, Clitheroe, Leyland triangle really.
Ideally, I'd like a farmhouse too, to be close to my livestock. So I'd imagine an FBT in that case but a grazing license may work also to test the business plan.
 

James691

Member
Mixed Farmer
Just having a quick read online - grazing license does not say sole use, so there could be other livestock on the pasture... should I expect to pay less for that over an FBT?
 

Electricfencer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cotswolds
Just having a quick read online - grazing license does not say sole use, so there could be other livestock on the pasture... should I expect to pay less for that over an FBT?
Grazing licenses are significantly less than FBT (around here anyway), they usually come with more clauses as when you can graze or cut and sometimes the farm have there own stock as well. Also offer no real security and you never know what year they want you out.
I have about 200 acres of on summer grazing licenses that I don't pay anything for, I control the weeds and top it in July but not allowed to feed sheep there in winter, they claim the payments for HLS. As well as the summer licenses I also have hundreds of acres of winter keep licenses on dairy and arable farms that are paid on per head per week basis. I've also got a 5 year FBT on 150 acres that I can do what I want with and pay a good rent for that but that is my base.
 
Grazing licenses are significantly less than FBT (around here anyway), they usually come with more clauses as when you can graze or cut and sometimes the farm have there own stock as well. Also offer no real security and you never know what year they want you out.
I have about 200 acres of on summer grazing licenses that I don't pay anything for, I control the weeds and top it in July but not allowed to feed sheep there in winter, they claim the payments for HLS. As well as the summer licenses I also have hundreds of acres of winter keep licenses on dairy and arable farms that are paid on per head per week basis. I've also got a 5 year FBT on 150 acres that I can do what I want with and pay a good rent for that but that is my base.

Complex business!
 

James691

Member
Mixed Farmer
Thank you Electricfencer! :)

Top it means what? Payments for HLS, what is HLS please and how is claimed and from whom?
I will get used to the terms and acronyms as quickly as I can :LOL:
 

Electricfencer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cotswolds
Hls is a scheme that the land own would put the farm in to and come the payment. Simply it means the grass land can’t be improved in any way (no fertilizer, reseeding and can’t even feed stock on it to get more fertility into the ground) and can’t cut (topped or made hay) until mid July. It’s usually poor ground on banks and next to rivers.
Thank you Electricfencer! :)

Top it means what? Payments for HLS, what is HLS please and how is claimed and from whom?
I will get used to the terms and acronyms as quickly as I can :LOL:
F1DB1096-CAAF-4006-98AC-807138620263.jpeg
This is classic hls ground that I’m moving sheep onto this morning. No fences or water but it’s free and can probably graze 3 ewes to the acre from April to October (this land the sheep and electric has to be off by the last day September so it clear for shooting) for just £12 worth of topping and run around with the weed wiper.
 
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Electricfencer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cotswolds
Grazing licenses are significantly less than FBT (around here anyway), they usually come with more clauses as when you can graze or cut and sometimes the farm have there own stock as well. Also offer no real security and you never know what year they want you out.
I have about 200 acres of on summer grazing licenses that I don't pay anything for, I control the weeds and top it in July but not allowed to feed sheep there in winter, they claim the payments for HLS. As well as the summer licenses I also have hundreds of acres of winter keep licenses on dairy and arable farms that are paid on per head per week basis. I've also got a 5 year FBT on 150 acres that I can do what I want with and pay a good rent for that but that is my base.
It’s not really complex but has just evolved over the last 15 years with bit been added on. You know what it like, you graze a 5 acre paddock to keep it tidy, then the next door dairy wants you to graze his and so it goes on. Picked up another 35 acres yesterday next to another block I have. I’ve never applied for any land that has come on the open mark for rental.
 

James691

Member
Mixed Farmer
Hls is a scheme that the land own would put the farm in to and come the payment. Simply it means the grass land can’t be improved in any way (no fertilizer, reseeding and can’t even feed stock on it to get more fertility into the ground) and can’t cut (topped or made hay) until mid July. It’s usually poor ground on banks and next to rivers.
Thank you! Do you know how much you get for not doing anything to some land?
 
It’s not really complex but has just evolved over the last 15 years with bit been added on. You know what it like, you graze a 5 acre paddock to keep it tidy, then the next door dairy wants you to graze his and so it goes on. Picked up another 35 acres yesterday next to another block I have. I’ve never applied for any land that has come on the open mark for rental.

Somehow, I never seem to get these bits offered to me, in spite of my natural charm... ;)

You must be doing an excellent job, but probably seem to spend all your life in a pickup? :)
 

James691

Member
Mixed Farmer
This is classic hls ground that I’m moving sheep onto this morning. No fences or water but it’s free and can probably graze 3 ewes to the acre from April to October (this land the sheep and electric has to be off by the last day September so it clear for shooting) for just £12 worth of topping and run around with the weed wiper.
Outstanding, I don't actually need a water or power supply, or fences actually but I would like to be near my chickens so they don't get stolen in the night!
That's a point, insurance I assume there is this for livestock in case of theft... or is that another topic thread?
 

Electricfencer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cotswolds
Outstanding, I don't actually need a water or power supply, or fences actually but I would like to be near my chickens so they don't get stolen in the night!
That's a point, insurance I assume there is this for livestock in case of theft... or is that another topic thread?
Sorry I didn’t realize you where talking about chickens. That would be very different to sheep and cattle rent.
 

Highland Mule

Member
Livestock Farmer
a min of about 30 acres
How many do you plan on having, and how will you house them at night?

Layers or meat birds? What will you be feeding them on?

Frankly, your writing here suggests you haven’t got a business plan, is that fair? The cost of birds and infrastructure will make any land rental seem trivial, I’d imagine.
 

James691

Member
Mixed Farmer
think you would be well advised to start off by working for a farmer so you get at least some idea of what you are talking about.

Very unlikely that with your obvious lack of knowledge that anyone would rent you any land.
I agree, and have approached a few in my area for education in exchange for my labour. I also ask a lot of questions of farmers, hence the forum :) Got to start somewhere and it normally starts with asking what you don't know. Appreciate the advice :)
 

James691

Member
Mixed Farmer
How many do you plan on having, and how will you house them at night?

I'm looking at around 450, a very small start off to see what I don't know and limit any serious capital investment for the first round. At night they would be in a coop.

Layers or meat birds? What will you be feeding them on?
Meat birds, again in the first round. I'm reading into the breeds and what looks the most suitable and what other people are selling in my county. They would be pasture fed and supplemented with feed. Again, I'm looking into the various feeds on the market and asking chicken farmers in my area, both mass production, organic and pasture for life etc to compile information.


Frankly, your writing here suggests you haven’t got a business plan, is that fair?
Very fair, as I'm in the process of writing one, and this is why I am asking so many very basic questions as the plan evolves with as much information from experienced farmers and seminars as I can gleam.


The cost of birds and infrastructure will make any land rental seem trivial, I’d imagine.
From what I've now been told about land rental costs, I fully agree and that again would be in the plan along with the cashflow, profit and loss forecasting model. For that, I need as much information as I can get and I'm approaching as many sources as I can think of.

Thanks for taking the time to ask! I'm always happy to take advice, ask questions and always appreciate someone taking time out of their day to pass on their knowledge and experience :)
 

James691

Member
Mixed Farmer
Sorry I didn’t realize you where talking about chickens. That would be very different to sheep and cattle rent.
My apologies for not stating that at the start! I assume in reflection of the price?

My first plan was to buy the land and the farmhouse until I came here and saw the costs of renting and that it was per year. Seems renting does come with it's own challenges of course and some having some real issues with Landlords, much like the private housing market I guess.
 

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