Tenant or landowner ?

[Bob the beef]

In an insecure tenancy your “rights” only exist on paper

As they do in all the registered rights to buy. Was only an agreement that should the Landlord ever wish to sell, the tenant got first chance to buy. Was never preemptive, unlike what the snp wish to impose

 

[Chae1]

He doesn't mention it much, but think @Farma Parma is a tenant farmer.

Apparently fendt ownership defines weather you own land or not!

We own no land, all land rented. Don't own a fendt either.

 

[Farma Parma]

He doesn't mention it much, but think @Farma Parma is a tenant farmer.

Apparently fendt ownership defines weather you own land or not!

We own no land, all land rented. Don't own a fendt either.

No i never mention it (Where is my spade)

 

[Farma Parma]

seeing my family have farmed this place over 135yrs its about time i was offered the place at a heck of a discount wasnt it....
It will never happen tho.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Dad was offered the freehold of his farm (120 acres he'd farmed since 1972 under a full AHA tenancy) in 1993 when the owner died and asked a good friend of his, a land agent, for advice. "Why on earth do you want to buy it when you've got it for life at a cheap rent"? was the reply.

He bought it anyway and it's worth around 15 times what he put in now! (including building a new house and yard on it).

It was a fair question though. Land here was historically cheap at the time.

 

[Fake it ‘til you make it]

You forgot about Special Export Refunds, the scheme in which the EEC paid meat companies/ traders to dump the EEC-subsidised meat on foreign markets...

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Hey
As an Australian, it’s something that I’m not that familiar with & probably don’t have a good grasp on, but reading TFF it seems that a lot of farm businesses operate on leased / rented land ( owned by the Duke of Westminster, or the C of E or some other massive aristocratic landowner ), rather than having freehold title on your land. There also seems to be a bit of “tension” between tenant farmers & landowners ? Which then raises questions over what a “real” farmer is ?

just curious, does anyone have a rough idea of what % of farm businesses in the UK are tenants & how many actually own the land they farm ?. Which is “normal” or the most common ?

Most here own the land they farm

cheers

I'm both, I own the land in partnership with my wife and sons, but our trading company pays us a yearly lease to operate the grazing business on it.

Helps keep "farming" and "landowning" apart, and also means we don't have a business if it can't pay for both my time and the rental, which is hefty by many standards on TFF.
It also means that reducing time input is a goal that's "there" in front of us all the time

Completely different context but I'm a businessman, not a feed-the-worlder

 

[Farmer Roy]

I'm both, I own the land in partnership with my wife and sons, but our trading company pays us a yearly lease to operate the grazing business on it.

Helps keep "farming" and "landowning" apart, and also means we don't have a business if it can't pay for both my time and the rental, which is hefty by many standards on TFF.
It also means that reducing time input is a goal that's "there" in front of us all the time

Completely different context but I'm a businessman, not a feed-the-worlder

thats actually relatively common practice here.
the family, or private individuals might hold the land in their name, but then lease it out to their farming business.
As you said, keeps things seperate & can also provide an income for older / retired or non farming family members, if that’s how they want to do it

 

[glasshouse]

As they do in all the registered rights to buy. Was only an agreement that should the Landlord ever wish to sell, the tenant got first chance to buy. Was never preemptive, unlike what the snp wish to impose

You have your facts upside down
All registered right to buy notices are pre emptive.
There is no other type, and anyone who registers for pre emptive rtb who is not on a full tenancy is asking for trouble.
Furthermore, the snp have no interest in an absolute right to buy.

 

[glasshouse]

Back before AHA tenancies, nasty landlords took the pish. Then came along AHA, tenants took the pish, and the pendulum swung the other way. Now we have gone in the other direction with short term FBT's, which I suppose benefit the LL more. Go back 100 years and most farmland was tenanted, then owner occupiers were the majority, now it seems to be heading back to renting again....
As said above, I wouldn't rent land out on a either a AHA nor a short term FBT. I don't like the way various governments quietly change them ( usually in favour of the tenant ) over the years.
If you sign an agreement, the gentlemanly thing to do is to stick to what is written in that agreement ( Looking at my AHA agreement, there's no mention of compo to quit, nor handing the tenancy over to a complete stranger for another 25 years ).
As for " Proper farmer " it's a running joke after Clive's dad proclaimed those that post on other farming forums weren't proper farmers anyway. Thankfully only a handful on here think they're a cut above the rest. Usually no - tillers.....

Plenty nasty landlords still out there

 

[glasshouse]

Wasn't this how the Nazis in Germany started by turfing the large landowners off their estates? I stand to be corrected.

The german peasants generally owned their land, but its a federation of small states, each with their own ideas

 

[Kiwi Pete]

thats actually relatively common practice here.
the family, or private individuals might hold the land in their name, but then lease it out to their farming business.
As you said, keeps things seperate & can also provide an income for older / retired or non farming family members, if that’s how they want to do it

It does have its perks, one being our boys are very much a part of it, even though they're young they're included in the processes and major decisions.

It's "their house too"

 

[toquark]

thats actually relatively common practice here.
the family, or private individuals might hold the land in their name, but then lease it out to their farming business.
As you said, keeps things seperate & can also provide an income for older / retired or non farming family members, if that’s how they want to do it

It’s not unheard of here. I can think of a number of larger estates with a fairly large “in hand” operation where the farming operation leases the ground from a family trust of some such, all under the same ownership. Though I suspect in these cases it may be a way of avoiding tax...

 

[Bob the beef]

You have your facts upside down
All registered right to buy notices are pre emptive.
There is no other type, and anyone who registers for pre emptive rtb who is not on a full tenancy is asking for trouble.
Furthermore, the snp have no interest in an absolute right to buy.

Really?

 

[glasshouse]

Really?

Yes
Really

 

[glasshouse]

We have both owned and rented ground, also I look after a bit of rented ground in my day job. All of the rented land is on 364 day leases. This does nothing for the land in question other than slowly deplete it over time.

Traditionally, renting farms was the way new entrants got into the industry. Historically land values reflected productive capacity so it wasn't impossible or that unusual for a tenant farmer to eventually farm their way into an owned unit. Today however land values are completely divorced from production, significantly reducing the ability of new farmers to secure thier own land.

This coupled with the right to buy fears held by many large landowners, has massively reduced the amount of rentable acres offered each year and has had a very detrimental impact on the industry. It only serves to further the disparity between industrial farmers (who in many cases are there only by virtue of an enterprising ancestor) and the rest of us.

@Pringles is correct in stating you'd have to be clinically insane to let land on a longer term basis for fear of ending up with a tenant intent on robbing you of your own farm!

Why would anyone let land when the govt pays a far greater rent with no capital investment in stock , seed or machinery necessary?
That is the truth of the matter.

 

[Farmer Roy]

@Farmer Roy I was under the impression that a significant amount of farmed land in northern Aus was leasehold, mainly from crown estate?

yes, basically most of those large northern cattle stations are leasehold, but very different to the UK model.
While it does cover a large area, it is still only a relatively small % of all farm businesses

they are a "perpetual lease", which means they go on forever, not 99 years as some may think.
The lease can be bought & sold, just as if you were selling freehold land.
In our case, there is no "crown estate", just crown land, which, also in our case, the "crown" being the relevant State Government

this is from Qld, but gives you an idea of rentals. Many "pastoral leases" I believe are a relatively small token rental
Rent determination by rental category

Rental category	Purpose	Annual rent
11	Primary production, including aquaculture, viticulture and agriculture	Minimum rent: $272.00 excl. GST Note: GST may be charged in addition to this fee as per section 448A of the Land Act 1994. Calculated rent: Primary production – perpetual leases: 1.5% of the land value Primary production – term leases, licences and permits to occupy: 0.75% of the land value The annual rent is capped at no more than 10% above the previous year's annual rent
12	Residential	Minimum rent: $272.00 excl. GST Note: GST may be charged in addition to this fee as per section 448A of the Land Act 1994. Calculated rent: 6% of the 3-year average land value
13	Business and government core business	Minimum rent: $272.00 excl. GST Note: GST may be charged in addition to this fee as per section 448A of the Land Act 1994. Calculated rent: 6% of the 3-year average land value
14.1	Charities and small sporting or recreational clubs with no more than 2000 members	$132.00 excl. GST Note: GST may be charged in addition to this fee as per section 448A of the Land Act 1994.
14.2	Large sporting or recreational clubs with more than 2000 members	Minimum rent: $132.00 excl. GST Note: GST may be charged in addition to this fee as per section 448A of the Land Act 1994. Calculated rent: 5% for the land on which the clubhouse and associated amenities are situated + 1% for the remainder of the land under the lease
15.1	Communication sites (community service activities)	$132.00 excl. GST Note: GST may be charged in addition to this fee as per section 448A of the Land Act 1994.
15.2	Communication sites (limited commercial service activities—rural)	$6,856.00 excl. GST Note: GST may be charged in addition to this fee as per section 448A of the Land Act 1994.
15.3	Communication sites (limited commercial service activities—urban)	$10,193.00 excl. GST Note: GST may be charged in addition to this fee as per section 448A of the Land Act 1994.
15.4	Communication sites (non-community service—rural)	$13,719.00 excl. GST Note: GST may be charged in addition to this fee as per section 448A of the Land Act 1994.
15.5	Communication sites (non-community service—urban)	$20,576.00 excl. GST Note: GST may be charged in addition to this fee as per section 448A of the Land Act 1994.
16	Divestment	Minimum rent: $272.00 excl. GST Note: GST may be charged in addition to this fee as per section 448A of the Land Act 1994. Calculated rent: 7% of the most recent land value

Perpetual Leases can be converted to freehold title & I know that a few years ago NSW had a big campaign to encourage those on leasehold land to convert it to freehold. The theory being i think that they stood to make more money from stamp duty with land being sold in the future, than they did from the leases ?

"In Australia, public lands without a specific tenure (e.g. National Park or State Forest) are referred to as Crown land or State Land, which is described as being held in the 'right of the Crown' of either an individual State or the Commonwealth of Australia; there is not a single 'Crown' (as a legal governmental entity) in Australia (see The Crown). Most Crown lands in Australia are held by the Crown in the right of a State. The only land held by the Commonwealth consists of land in the Northern Territory (surrendered by South Australia), the Australian Capital Territory, Jervis Bay Territory, and small areas acquired for airports, defence and other government purposes.

Each jurisdiction has its own policies towards the sale and use of Crown lands within the State. For example, New South Wales, where over half of all land is Crown land,[1] passed a controversial reform in 2005 requiring Crown lands to be rated at market value.[2] Crown lands include land set aside for various government or public purposes, development, town planning, as well as vacant land. Crown lands comprise around 23% of Australian land, of which the largest single category is vacant land, comprising 12.5% of the land. [3]

Crown land is used for such things as airports, military grounds (Commonwealth), public utilities (usually State), or is sometimes unallocated and reserved for future development.

In Tasmania, Crown land is managed under the Crown Lands Act 1976. In Queensland, Unallocated State Land (USL) is managed under The Land Act 1994. In South Australia, the relevant Act is the Crown Land Management Act 2009. In Victoria,[4] it is the Crown Land (Reserves) Act 1978 and the Land Act 1958."

but yes, privately owned land is also leased, but nothing like the rigidity of the various UK leases, it appears.

A formal lease agreement is usually 3 or 5 years, with an option for another 2 at the end of that period. But the landowner & tenant can basically come to any agreement they like.
A neighbour of mine has Parkinsons disease & i have been leasing his country for a number of years. The initial lease was a formal 5 year legal document, but since then we have just carried on as a year by year arrangement. It will probably carry on like this till he dies. When it does end, I will have access to harvest any crops planted & will be compensated for any costs ( weed control, fertiliser etc etc ) incurred on any fallow country that doesnt have a crop planted. That is an arrangement that suits both parties, there is a lot of flexibility to how you arrange your lease.

 

[Farmer Roy]

other areas that farm land may be leased from includes areas controlled by mining companies ( open cut mines generally have to have large "buffer" areas around them, which usually means buying up all the surrounding farmland & then leasing it to someone, or planting trees for carbon offsets . . .) or foreign investors.

more common in the past were "sharefarming" agreements, where the costs of inputs & distribution of returns were "shared" between the landowner & the farmer.

the 2 most common shares were 33% ( the landowner was responsible for land rates etc, paid 33% of inputs such as chem / seed / fert etc & received 33% of gross returns, with the farmer responsible for 66% of inputs & receiving 66% of returns ) or 25% ( with the landowner responsible for rates etc, paid no inputs but received 25% of gross. The farmer had full control & responsibility for all inputs & costs, but received 75% of gross return )

this was seen as "fairer", as in a good year the landowner made more money, but in bad years ( less money spent on inputs ) the farmer didnt have to meet a fixed rental figure, just a % of what he grew, if anything . . .

contract farming is also popular, but not in the way it is done in the Uk ( from what i see in TFF anyway ). The landowner still makes all decisions, pays inputs & receives all returns, but instead of physically doing the work themselves, employs a contractor to do the spraying, cultivations, planting, spreading, harvesting etc etc. But the decision making process & the risk is still all on the landowner

leasing / sharefarming / using contractors are all good options for people who want to step back or retire from physical farming, but still want to maintain ownership of land for future generations etc.

my own farm was leased out to neighbours over 30 years ago, when i was traipsing around Australia & the UK for 5 years or more. Prior to that, when i was a child & my father became ill, we had sharefarmers on the arable country. However, by the time I was old enough, they had pretty much reached their use by date so I sacked them & leased out the land, so my parents had some security & a regular income while i was away.
Actually, the fellow I leased it to suffered a couple of bad flood years in a row & couldnt make it pay, so some neighbours took it on. The first fellow hung himself a few years later . . .

 

[Farmer Roy]

err, land agents dont really exist, as such, here either

 

[Kiwi Pete]

err, land agents dont really exist, as such, here either

It's very handy being able to speak and write English like a big boy then nobody treats you like you're a few chromosomes shy