The British countryside is being killed by herbicides and insecticides!

[Kiwi Pete]

Quite a tangent but related to a point you made about the sparrows @mikep

Most of the local sparrow population were wiped out because of people like my dear old mum: feeding them dripping on bird tables, where something like salmonella or listeria (or whatever) ripped through them and took out most of them.
They soon came back when people stopped feeding them, though

So, in a nutshell, everything we do has impact, doesn't it?
I aim to impact with animals not me - lazy farming

but on principle, I don't try to tame the wild things, or feed the sparrows
Making decisions that require less input and do less impacting stuff - that's all any of us can do... the newpapers can huff and puff; but the change has to come from the bottom up to have any impact at soil level - that is what's keeping us here: topsoil, where life begets life not just farmers...
People

Air pollution is amazingly shushed; it often surprises me as a New Zealander how often I hear the ideal of "we have a right to have swimmable rivers" and yet see nobody swimming in the river when I go - but air quality is only ever talked about in an urban context we all need good air

It is amazing the bias and prejudice in the modern world - I am stuffed if I know how we educate people who won't open their minds

 

[mikep]

I think it's very narrow minded to blame "farmers" for the decline. Farmers are simply providing food to feed the world population which as we all know is predicted to reach 9.7 billion by 2050. There is a requirement not only for food but for "cheap" food dictated by the supermarkets and processors, which in order for growers to remain in business requires a reliance on inputs eg: agchems, artificial fertilizers etc. The third element is the global market we are now part of where "cheap" food is flooding our shores from countries with lower environmental, sustainability and welfare standards. Finally the majority of farmers I know are true custodians of the countryside who take great pride in having a rich bio-diversity on their farms. If we are to halt the decline, the starting place is with the 65 million UK consumers as their pricing and provenance expectations dictate the way in which the British countryside will be managed in future.

Absolutely. The whole of everything so as to speak is demand led. It's no use me or anyone else producing touchy feely food as most of us would like to if there is no market (production led). We would go tits up and be homeless. The demand drives the market, change the demand and the problem is solved. Every green that blames the producers for the problems is just a lazy prat that goes for easy laughs and has no right to an opinion as they are unable to think for themselves. Farmers should not lay down and take the blame but point out not how much good they do but how much more they could do given consumer support.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

And also point out to them, that it is really quite easy to support farmers when they spend their money at the store.

The message many customers send with their spend is "we want manufactured "
and so they can definitely bring about change - the whole food chain is about as energy-intensive and wasteful as it is possible to be, consumers do recognise this but don't often accept that it is the spending that is the issue with "the crap people eat" - people buy it!!!

Plastic packaging doesn't grow on trees, but that doesn't matter, it will be the stinking farmer

It's all really disheartening if you think too much about it. Many of the systems in place with regard to food logistics are born in the 1800s, archaic, but vastly more wasteful than was possible then

 

[Dry Rot]

Last year I had a fit of enthusiasm and set up a production line to manufacture nest boxes. All for home consumption, I might add. Simple to do with a chop saw and some timber.

That, and an open topped barrel where I store barley for the hens, has resulted in a minor population explosion in house sparrows (who repay me by sh*tting all over my work bench).

Some common species have disappeared simply because farming has got too clean. If there were more weeds and rough corners, I am sure a lot of game birds and finches would flourish as my sparrows appear to be doing. I just wish they wouldn't use my work bench as a toilet.

 

[melted welly]

Report from 'Bird Life international, not from the 70s or 80s but - 13th June 2018.

The top five threats to birds!

No surprise to anyone, I'm sure, that Industrial Farming is the #1 threat to birds.

They clearly believe part of the solution is better controls when it comes to the use of Pesticides & Herbicides.

e.g. "In exchange for not using pesticides or herbicides, and refraining from hunting or logging, farmers receive a premium price for their produce."

Perhaps it's high time that this approach was tried in the UK.

So I maintain that this is not an old problem from the 70s & 80s at all, but rather a very real & present danger - today!

Interesting to note too, that you posted a link to a very biased article, about a region of Scotland with an absolutely dreadful reputation for raptor persecution & mysteriously vanishing Eagles.
It was clear that the wool had been pulled well over the german's eyes because he failed to mention the strange absence of birds like Hen Harrier from this supposed paradise for ground nesting birds, nor were the missing Eagles mentioned.

Your birdlife international article is as it says on the tin - international.

This thread that you started concerns the British countryside.

International industrialised farming presumably includes rainforest clearance for Palm oil production, slash and burn in developing countries, mono cropping, the plains of Eastern Europe, China and whatever they're up to now, netting of migratory birds in the Mediterranean........the list can go on and none of it happens in the uk. To take that article, which gives no specifics, just generic points and present it as your current rail against agriculture is lazy, ignorant and tiresome.

I didn't farm in the 70s, 80s or 90s, I started in the 21st century. We cover crop,use bio instead of agchem, there is a high impotence on biodiversity, nature, ICM and soil management. To pass our audits we have policies for everything from water management to recycling to soil improvement.

You think farmers are narrow minded and stuck in their ways but your reaction to the "gift of grouse" link would suggest you are incapable of even acknowledging any good may of been done. Why is that? Because it says that in order to protect those further down the food chain, you need to control those higher up? Inconvenient.

Someone who cannot change their mind will never change anything.

Bird of prey disappearances on shooting estates: was there not a case of "mass poisoning" being the result of conservationists putting out rancid meat? The hysteria died down quite quickly on that one.

What happened to the hedgehogs the rspb removed to protect ground nesting birds on the western isles? "Humanely captured" then released on mass on the mainland leading to massive over population. The rats they accidentally caught were dispatched with a few dozen rounds from an underpowered BB gun then bludgeoned.

Remove the hypocrisy from the green lobby, and a lot more people will listen to you.

 

[CornishTone]

This is from a friend of mine who is a current Australian Nuffield Scholar...

Perhaps some don’t realise or appreciate what they have in the British countryside like an outsider can?

 

[mikep]

Last year I had a fit of enthusiasm and set up a production line to manufacture nest boxes. All for home consumption, I might add. Simple to do with a chop saw and some timber.

That, and an open topped barrel where I store barley for the hens, has resulted in a minor population explosion in house sparrows (who repay me by sh*tting all over my work bench).

Some common species have disappeared simply because farming has got too clean. If there were more weeds and rough corners, I am sure a lot of game birds and finches would flourish as my sparrows appear to be doing. I just wish they wouldn't use my work bench as a toilet.

The red tractor has a lot to answer for in its demand that all grain stores are bird proof. How many sparrows and swallows were deprived of a home. If they had been shitting on the grain so what? They and anything else can do it when it's out in the field. Not been a problem ever so why make it one? They also wanted to ban free roaming farm yard chickens. Dicks like that are a large part of the problem.

 

[Fallowfield]

'Bird of prey disappearances on shooting estates: was there not a case of "mass poisoning" being the result of conservationists putting out rancid meat? The hysteria died down quite quickly on that one.'

###
You're referring to the poisoning of red kites on the Black Isle I presume.


It wasn't 'a case of "mass poisoning" being the result of conservationists putting out rancid meat'.

There was though a rumour to that effect put about by the shooting industry.

The fact that you apparently swallowed, and repeat, the line is indicative of your prejudice and lack of understanding.


https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/rspb-slam-outrageous-red-kite-death-rumours-1-3435903

 

[Fallowfield]

This is from a friend of mine who is a current Australian Nuffield Scholar...
View attachment 683708
Perhaps some don’t realise or appreciate what they have in the British countryside like an outsider can?

Shifting baseline syndrome.

'The phrase describes an incremental lowering of standards that results with each new generation lacking knowledge of the historical, and presumably more natural, condition of the environment. Therefore, each generation defines what is ‘natural’ or ‘normal’ according to current conditions and their personal experiences. With each new generation, the expectations of various ecological conditions shifts. The result is that our standards are lowered almost imperceptibly.'

 

[melted welly]

'Bird of prey disappearances on shooting estates: was there not a case of "mass poisoning" being the result of conservationists putting out rancid meat? The hysteria died down quite quickly on that one.'

###
You're referring to the poisoning of red kites on the Black Isle I presume.


It wasn't 'a case of "mass poisoning" being the result of conservationists putting out rancid meat'.

There was though a rumour to that effect put about by the shooting industry.

The fact that you apparently swallowed, and repeat, the line is indicative of your prejudice and lack of understanding.


https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/rspb-slam-outrageous-red-kite-death-rumours-1-3435903

Prejudice to what?

 

[Dry Rot]

A bit of an aside, but why are Mssrs Fallowfield and ptarmigan so intent on pissing off farmers and landowners if they seriously want to get them on side?

I know my reaction when people insult me and try to force me to accept their views. Especially when they don't start with a valid arguement. You'd think they would have learnt something from the raven thread which left them looking seriously stupid.

 

[mikep]

Shifting baseline syndrome.

'The phrase describes an incremental lowering of standards that results with each new generation lacking knowledge of the historical, and presumably more natural, condition of the environment. Therefore, each generation defines what is ‘natural’ or ‘normal’ according to current conditions and their personal experiences. With each new generation, the expectations of various ecological conditions shifts. The result is that our standards are lowered almost imperceptibly.'

What a load of crap.

 

[Fallowfield]

Prejudice to what?

Good question.



Who invented the story about kites being killed by poisoned meat put out by conservationists, why are you prepared to accept such a ridiculous story at face value and why are you using it to further your argument?

 

[melted welly]

Good question.



Who invented the story about kites being killed by poisoned meat put out by conservationists, why are you prepared to accept such a ridiculous story at face value and why are you using it to further your argument?

To wind you up

 

[Farmer Roy]

 

[Ukjay]

e.g. "In exchange for not using pesticides or herbicides, and refraining from hunting or logging, farmers receive a premium price for their produce."

Perhaps it's high time that this approach was tried in the UK.

So, have I gone to sleep and woken up in a polar opposite universe whereby you are seriously suggesting that by stopping the use of pesticides and herbicides, the ignorant f**kers in the UK that simply want the cheapest food; people who do not care how far round the world it has travelled or care a jot how it was grown / reared - will pay more after this

#Ho-Lee-sh!t

People have become accustomed to cheap food at any cost and are totally ignorant to the real life costs of foodstocks - and more importantly; they do not value food enough to openly pay extra, and our frikin government are too preoccupied with their own back pockets, that they would not force this in the UK.

You only need to look at how much food is wasted each day in the UK, even the left overs from a Sunday roast go into the bin, as you cant possibly reuse it into a second meal on say the following Monday could you

I can't wait for you to raise the charge to change peoples perception and get them to willingly pay more for food, ensuring also, that the actual increses in food costs definitely gets back into the farmers pockets, because you see - that will never happen either imho, because all the rewards of screwing the farmers over at any cost by putting extreme pressures on purchasing teams to get everything bought in at the lowest possible cost - and that means The Lowest or they walk, will provide the benefits to the executives, for the shareholders, not the farmers - because as the profit grows, so does their bonuses, then the next year the the shareholders get promised more - thus the cycle continues!!

 

[roscoe erf]

So, have I gone to sleep and woken up in a polar opposite universe whereby you are seriously suggesting that by stopping the use of pesticides and herbicides, the ignorant fudgeers in the UK that simply want the cheapest food; people who do not care how far round the world it has travelled or care a jot how it was grown / reared - will pay more after this

#Ho-Lee-sh!t

People have become accustomed to cheap food at any cost and are totally ignorant to the real life costs of foodstocks - and more importantly; they do not value food enough to openly pay extra, and our frikin government are too preoccupied with their own back pockets, that they would not force this in the UK.

You only need to look at how much food is wasted each day in the UK, even the left overs from a Sunday roast go into the bin, as you cant possibly reuse it into a second meal on say the following Monday could you

I can't wait for you to raise the charge to change peoples perception and get them to willingly pay more for food, ensuring also, that the actual increses in food costs definitely gets back into the farmers pockets, because you see - that will never happen either imho, because all the rewards of screwing the farmers over at any cost by putting extreme pressures on purchasing teams to get everything bought in at the lowest possible cost - and that means The Lowest or they walk, will provide the benefits to the executives, for the shareholders, not the farmers - because as the profit grows, so does their bonuses, then the next year the the shareholders get promised more - thus the cycle continues!!

brother of ho lee fuk

 

[Ukjay]

brother of ho lee fuk

 

[Clive]

the guardian again with its one sided biased reporting not even going to bother to read it will stick to the beano

And we are not at all in any way whatsoever biased are we ?

 

[mikep]

And we are not at all in any way whatsoever biased are we ?

Not in such a way. They have an editorial bias and find stories to suit their prejudice. Most farmers are just a bit against change.