The urge to grow

[nxy]

Years ago I remember a French farmer asking me why is the first thing Brit farmers want to do when they buy a French farm is to try and buy even more land, until they get to such a point they can't farm it properly.

You thinking of anybody in particular?

 

[nxy]

TBH, every one of my French neighbours, without exception, rents extra ground

I have never really chased rented land because buying over 20 years or so works out at about the same price. I have done it but only usually as part of another deal.

 

[soapsud]

No need to apologise, but I too am not making myself as clear as I should and your comment illustrates what I was referring to. A destination is a fixed point, increasing scale is a process, if you accept a process as a destination then it follows that you must accept that the process should ideally go on indefinitely as there is no destination (or goal) or end point. If someone believes that you must increase scale to survive ( ie to compete, and if you don't compete your business / farm dies) then. There is some logic in the in statement "to reach my goal I must first survive", but if the only way to survive is constant increases in scale then it allows that only a few will succeed as that process depends on the failure of the many to allow the success of the few. I suppose what I'm driving at is the notion that expansion is a phase of a life cycle, it cannot go on for ever, and whilst I am definitely not against expansion, I do not see it as a goal in itself, which is what you were driving at in the first place. My head is overheating now and getting confused.

Economies of scale is just more of the same. How would you incorporate scope into your way of thinking?

 

[Muck Spreader]

You thinking of anybody in particular?

Not really, but I think the original questioner was probably addressing me, but I suppose it could easily be any of us. I suppose it's a British mentality of local land only becoming available once in a lifetime therefore you must buy it. Over here you soon realise its often available.

 

[puppet]

It is not confined to farming.
Tesco predicts 5% growth in sales but when it only makes 3% the share price falls. How much more shopping are we expected to do or how many corner shops close in the process.
All to the altar of the God of growth (but static profit)

 

[Whitewalker]

No need to apologise, but I too am not making myself as clear as I should and your comment illustrates what I was referring to. A destination is a fixed point, increasing scale is a process, if you accept a process as a destination then it follows that you must accept that the process should ideally go on indefinitely as there is no destination (or goal) or end point. If someone believes that you must increase scale to survive ( ie to compete, and if you don't compete your business / farm dies) then. There is some logic in the in statement "to reach my goal I must first survive", but if the only way to survive is constant increases in scale then it allows that only a few will succeed as that process depends on the failure of the many to allow the success of the few. I suppose what I'm driving at is the notion that expansion is a phase of a life cycle, it cannot go on for ever, and whilst I am definitely not against expansion, I do not see it as a goal in itself, which is what you were driving at in the first place. My head is overheating now and getting confused.

We need to remember life is a cycle too as a human being.

 

[nxy]

Not really, but I think the original questioner was probably addressing me, but I suppose it could easily be any of us. I suppose it's a British mentality of local land only becoming available once in a lifetime therefore you must buy it. Over here you soon realise its often available.

I actually think we are in a different situation to the UK. Looking at the land prices and rents quoted on here expansion seems to be a lot more to do with pride than the bottom line.

Here its very much about the bottom line because farming land "well" doesn't really pay compared to expanding because adding a hectare is essentially free whereas reseeds, fertilizer, hedgecutting, lime and drainage all cost money. Its mad but unfortunately true that often producing half as much from twice the area is more profitable.

 

[Dan Powell]

This is a nice summary of where we are at as a culture.

Animated Series | The Great Simplification

www.thegreatsimplification.com

At some point we all individually and culturally have to accept this message. I would say only about 10% genuinely accept it though. Everyone else believes in some kind of magical future, some breakthrough technology.... moving to Mars, fusion, bioreactor gloop as food. Meanwhile we distract ourselves from the reality that there are less great apes on the whole planet than there are Brummies, insect population collapse, sewage-filled rivers etc by staring at a 3 by 5 inch piece of plastic and sharing our wisdom. Maybe Sundays were better when everyone went to church.

We are overwhelmed by conflicting information and paralysed into meaningless inaction unable to swim against the tide of the human superorganism, addicted to microlitres of dopamine generated by who likes our posts on a poxy internet forum as if it really matters, careering towards a future we don't really believe in.

@Kiwi Pete is going to green a desert apparently. Hell yes, good plan!

I'm going to plant some new hedges. Small beer but why not. I get more satisfaction out of watching swallows, finches and wagtails hanging out with my grazing cattle than I ever will out of trundling up and down on a shiny tractor.

 

[crashbox]

I have never really chased rented land because buying over 20 years or so works out at about the same price. I have done it but only usually as part of another deal.

My understanding for France is that you struggle to grow, because the SAFER (Société d'aménagement foncier et d'établissement rural) generally blocks expansion.

So it isn't even "a thing"?

 

[czechmate]

My understanding for France is that you struggle to grow, because the SAFER (Société d'aménagement foncier et d'établissement rural) generally blocks expansion.

So it isn't even "a thing"?

the SAFER can’t operate like that if they don’t have folk fighting over the land

 

[BRB John]

The grass is always greener isn't it?
There's a few on this forum that would benefit greatly from paying a little bit more attention to what they've got and alot less attention to what others have.

 

[nxy]

My understanding for France is that you struggle to grow, because the SAFER (Société d'aménagement foncier et d'établissement rural) generally blocks expansion.

So it isn't even "a thing"?

In some areas of France , generally those with lots of buyers the SAFER can be very powerful because they can find replacement buyers for anything that comes up. Here they do block sales but there is generally plenty of land available and a lack of buyers so they can do less. In fact in reality a lot of the time they work like glorified estate agents matching buyers and sellers.

Having said that they have blocked me several times but there has always been another bit of land come up shortly afterwards.

 

[glasshouse]

I actually think we are in a different situation to the UK. Looking at the land prices and rents quoted on here expansion seems to be a lot more to do with pride than the bottom line.

Here its very much about the bottom line because farming land "well" doesn't really pay compared to expanding because adding a hectare is essentially free whereas reseeds, fertilizer, hedgecutting, lime and drainage all cost money. Its mad but unfortunately true that often producing half as much from twice the area is more profitable.

Exactlty
There are two types of expansion,
1 is taking over the nrighbour
2 is expanding production at home

1 is the favoured route in uk with contract half farmed land the result

 

[Muck Spreader]

I actually think we are in a different situation to the UK. Looking at the land prices and rents quoted on here expansion seems to be a lot more to do with pride than the bottom line.

Here its very much about the bottom line because farming land "well" doesn't really pay compared to expanding because adding a hectare is essentially free whereas reseeds, fertilizer, hedgecutting, lime and drainage all cost money. Its mad but unfortunately true that often producing half as much from twice the area is more profitable.

You also have the 'problem' that the land is simply not as productive in this area. So, you are more likely to get a poorer return on your VC's if over used.

 

[ski]

Economies of scale is just more of the same. How would you incorporate scope into your way of thinking?

A good question and I'm thinking about that. Can we define 'scope' a bit more please. "scope of works" defines the areas to be examined, so for say building work that would involve a remedial or improvement actions, however if I am in the Army lets say, and I send send a scout off to 'scope out the enemies positions" it is a mapping exercise to gather information that may effect plans, so I would call it an 'orientation' action. I am going to assume that you probably mean all three of these. How would you define it?

 

[czechmate]

You also have the 'problem' that the land is simply not as productive in this area. So, you are more likely to get a poorer return on your VC's if over used.

Legion of Honour here, surely?

 

[DrWazzock]

Wouldn’t it be interesting if people asked how small an area of land would earn you a living instead of how large an area?
I’ll get shot down but I’ve never considered it particularly clever that some folk seem to need 10 times more land than others to earn a living. They can’t be very efficient can they?

 

[Devil's advocate]

People generally retire too late, that’s the problem . They are too old and knackered to do much else.
Retiring from farming in my early 60s has been a breath of fresh air .

Have you found a new business project?

 

[nxy]

People generally retire too late, that’s the problem . They are too old and knackered to do much else.
Retiring from farming in my early 60s has been a breath of fresh air .

I have mentioned it before but its worth repeating in France you can't have a state pension and farm subsidies. Its one or the other. The result is the majority of my neighbours can tell you to the day the date they are going to retire.

 

[Devil's advocate]

Wouldn’t it be interesting if people asked how small an area of land would earn you a living instead of how large an area?
I’ll get shot down but I’ve never considered it particularly clever that some folk seem to need 10 times more land than others to earn a living. They can’t be very efficient can they?

I thought that when I left school.

In my case 15 acre of field veg, hand harvested stuff like brassica's. It could be less of course with pulling peas, other legumes & salad crops.

But in reality the cereals although they produced much less income, earnt more money, because more acres more the land price increased.

When ever we have sat down & worked it out growing veg & buying land or property to rent out pays best.