To drill or not....and with what....Herbal ley...

[Timbo1080]

Right! I really need some help/advice on this, please!

Ex-winter wheat stubble, no overwintered cover crop. Soil is a medium Clay loam with a smattering of docks, thistles, AMG etc. Has had a light, and now very dry, dressing of FYM. 2 fields, both of which have just had some drainage work done. They are both in generally good condition. Soil temp this morning was 10 degrees. Drill is a 750a. Rubbish will be sprayed off after drilling.

Seeds in the bag:

We have Winter Wheat, Winter Oats and Winter or Spring Barley.
We also have a herbal ley mixture of Chicory, Red & White Clover, Sainfoin, Alsike, Birdsfoot Trefoil among others.

Ultimate aim is to plant the herbal ley, and have a roaring success....Which is where I am utterly stumped about what is the best course of action. My heart says wait, but I can't help feeling that this might be the best opportunity to drill.....

Situation:

It's bloody dry, and there is 0.2 inch of rain forecast this Sunday/Monday, the likelihood of which is 55% at best.

Dilemmas:

1. Do we drill the herbal ley asap, before the prospect of rain which might miss us, or wait until we have actually had some rain?

2. Apparently, herbal leys take a while to get going, so the thinking is to plant some Winter wheat/Oats/Barley at 1/2cwt/ac (62kgs/Ha ish), at the same time, to provide some cover/living matter in the soil while the herbal ley gets going. Plan would be to drill the cereals, then drill the herbal ley immediately afterwards. Could risk drying the ground out further? Is this necessary? Is it risky? Is there anything to be gained from putting the cereals in? Does it risk the herbal ley?

3. Is a coulter spacing of 16.6cm, too wide for a herbal ley? Does it definitely need cross drilling?

4. Are we already too late for a herbal ley? Or are we still early?

Not panicking yet, but clueless about herbal leys and don't want to screw It up......

Any and all comments would be very much appreciated.....Drilling days available before prospective rain...: Friday midday, and possibly part of Saturday. After the prospective rain....: Plenty of time for drilling after Monday.

TIA,

Tim

 

[Will Blackburn]

Herbal leys are ok till you thing about weed control, I wouldn't want to put one anywhere with dock and thistle concerns. Not too late i'm sure.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I don't think you'll be too late.
Maybe worth the cross drilling you mentioned, 3 passes with a 750a and you'll have a bit of tilth, were you planning on giving it a roll? That could help with moisture retention, and would aid germination if it's looking dry ahead
My feeling is it's often more important to keep things going rather than focus on the start! Later is often better, more weeds to kill and better soil temp/moisture maybe?
Best of luck be interested to see how it goes.
Edit
I definitely think the cereals will help cover things for you and add rather than subtract. Canopy is crucial in the dry!

 

[Timbo1080]

Do you think there is a risk of the cereals pinching the moisture from the smaller & slower herbal ley seeds? I'm really worried that it is currently too dry for anything to germinate, without rain. Then, when I do drill, I'm worried about drying it out further by having to do several passes....! I can roll, yes, but after one pass at an inch, drilling the cereals, followed by 2 further passes for the herbal ley, I think the moisture will have escaped before I get the chance to roll.....

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Do you think there is a risk of the cereals pinching the moisture from the smaller & slower herbal ley seeds? I'm really worried that it is currently too dry for anything to germinate, without rain. Then, when I do drill, I'm worried about drying it out further by having to do several passes....! I can roll, yes, but after one pass at an inch, drilling the cereals, followed by 2 further passes for the herbal ley, I think the moisture will have escaped before I get the chance to roll.....

They will compete for moisture, definitely, but the added cover from the cereals should more than make up for it I'd suggest. Yes you're probably right regards the extra pass.
Here, I put the oats/triticale on and then the grass/clover etc through an old roller drill, and then rolled on a slight angle.. but the other side of the world, and there was a little bit of moisture but largely absent.
First it was all oats and triticale and I thought I'd screwed up, by cutting time the clover was an inch below the oats and 3 inches below the triticale!
Is your area summer dry normally, or just dry as anywhere, this year?

 

[cows sh#t me to tears]

Have never cross drilled anything with the 750. Completely unnecessary. Drilled Hyola (grazing canola) for a neighbor at 3kg/ha this year and stooled out fine.

 

[Timbo1080]

They will compete for moisture, definitely, but the added cover from the cereals should more than make up for it I'd suggest. Yes you're probably right regards the extra pass.
Here, I put the oats/triticale on and then the grass/clover etc through an old roller drill, and then rolled on a slight angle.. but the other side of the world, and there was a little bit of moisture but largely absent.
First it was all oats and triticale and I thought I'd screwed up, by cutting time the clover was an inch below the oats and 3 inches below the triticale!
Is your area summer dry normally, or just dry as anywhere, this year?

That's very useful to know, thanks.
The south of the UK is having a prolonged dry spell at the moment. It's a complete guess whether it's going to be a dry year or wet year, and most of us have forgotten what "normal" is, wrt the weather.
I have linseed drilled 4 weeks ago that looks great, 3 weeks ago that is fine but could do with a drink, 2 weeks ago which is a bit patchy, and 1 week ago that is refusing to chit. The soil is completely devoid of moisture....an inch wouldn't go amiss.

 

[Timbo1080]

Have never cross drilled anything with the 750. Completely unnecessary. Drilled Hyola (grazing canola) for a neighbor at 3kg/ha this year and stooled out fine.

That is music to my ears, thank you. So you wouldn't be concerned about the spacing with clovers etc?

 

[cows sh#t me to tears]

No. I sow 850 ac at home every year of clover and grass and lucerne as required. Never cross drilled (virtually impossible anyway on irrigation due to check banks). Never roll either. Sometimes cross harrow on freshly laser graded paddocks, only to help water spread when flood irrigating, so it doesn't tear down the furrows.

 

[Timbo1080]

Thanks folks, we have decided to wait for this potential rain to pass through, and make a start on Tuesday next week. We will drill the winter cereals green cover and pending moisture conditions, will aim to follow with the herbal ley.

Thanks for the help, much appreciated.

Tim

 

[H.Jackson]

Drilled a herbal ley at the end of April two years ago not cross drilled still looks well today will be interesting to drill into when the time comes.

 

[SimonD]

Did it come up Tim?

 

[Timbo1080]

Did it come up Tim?

Hi Simon, we have a minor alteration to the plan. I had some Peas, beans, oats and Phacelia in stock, so used that instead of the straight cereals. Herbal ley seed is still in the bag.

Drilled in good conditions on the 4th, and rolled a day later - the fields had just had AD waste applied and was still wet when we drilled it.....Shan't be doing that again, the drill is an absolute mess, and to a certain degree, the soil was picking up on the Guage wheels & filling the inside of the rims....So we waited to roll until it was dry.

Sprayed off the rubbish a couple of days later, and haven't been back to it yet. It's not far away, and I'm sure that the owners wouldn't mind if you wanted to pop in and have a look....they've got some cracking herbal leys in from last year, and the cattle are soon to be deployed.

How're all your crops looking? Keep meaning to stop by, but never seem to get the chance!

Tim

 

[martian]

Good idea to wait. We drilled this last back end and cross drilled with 750a. Cattle basically eating blackgrass, but hoping ley will come through. Cross drilled because herbal leys don't thicken out much in 4 years and thought it was worth covering the ground. Probably a waste of time.

what lies beneath

 

[SimonD]

Have no complaints on our crops, winter Barley particularly suiting our light soil. I'd really like to look at cover crops but a little worried about our spring crop performance.

OSR is pretty good, certainly as good as anything conventionally grown, adding fert is for me the right thing to get it going. I'd be worried growing it without. Feel free to have a look.

Thought about AD waste before but the seed return from BG farms concerned me. Catch up beforeGroundswell or meet up there.

Wouldn't mind having a look.

 

[Brisel]

I have some Kingsclere herbal ley mix for mob grazing from @Great In Grass slowly making an appearance having been drilled 6th April into dust. What is the view on starter nitrogen for a mix of herbs, legumes and grasses?

 

[Great In Grass]

I have some Kingsclere herbal ley mix for mob grazing from @Great In Grass slowly making an appearance having been drilled 6th April into dust. What is the view on starter nitrogen for a mix of herbs, legumes and grasses?

That's the same mix as in the two images above perhaps @martian can shed some light on what he does, it will probably involve some dancing and singing though.

 

[Timbo1080]

I have some Kingsclere herbal ley mix for mob grazing from @Great In Grass slowly making an appearance having been drilled 6th April into dust. What is the view on starter nitrogen for a mix of herbs, legumes and grasses?

Any photos? Did you use the Claydon? Would be great to see. Good question about starter N, think it was briefly discussed elsewhere on here ref. Nodulation not being negatively impacted with small doses of N as a starter before nodulation begins. The only N in our case was a bit of FYM & the AD, but I have no analysis, so don't know how much was provided.

 

[Great In Grass]

If no-one has seen it there was a two page spread on @Tim May in last weeks Farmers Guardian talking about his herbal leys and how he's incorporated them into his farming operation very interesting article.

 

[Timbo1080]

Have no complaints on our crops, winter Barley particularly suiting our light soil. I'd really like to look at cover crops but a little worried about our spring crop performance.

OSR is pretty good, certainly as good as anything conventionally grown, adding fert is for me the right thing to get it going. I'd be worried growing it without. Feel free to have a look.

Thought about AD waste before but the seed return from BG farms concerned me. Catch up beforeGroundswell or meet up there.

Wouldn't mind having a look.

Tell me more about your spring crop performance and cover crops...what's the issue?

AD was clean of BG seed, as feedstock didn't come from an appropriate source....it's definitely the reason I won't have FYM anywhere near this place. More concerned about the nature of the bacteria from AD, but given the season was so dry, it didn't concern me too much.

Catch up before would be good, else see you there!

Tim