Unexplained cattle deaths

[Blaithin]

Not picking a fight @bovine , or ganging up as seems to be the case. But to say other than doing a PM, is bad advice or waste of money is an exaggeration? If someone says on here when lambs are thriving and nearly fit and they lose a few and they have not given ovivac / heptavac, surely a fair assumption pulpey, ok far from guaranteed as if no mag buckets out and a cow is on side with legs kicking or found dead with grass soiled from legs flailing isn't, but as I said earlier, people are struggling, and I will take on board bad advice or guessing a false economy, but some things can be answered and avoid an extra cost. Out of interest, what is the accepted loss of calves from sucklers to weaning? Lambing ewe lambs to selling as shearlings? I will probably be shot down, calve 240, lost 3 calves, lambed 1300 ewe lambs, summer mastitis, on back etc and random should have been PM I lost 21, lambing I would lose a lot of lambs but all go out with one which is what I want. Cows, 2 a year?

I can understand where Bovine is coming from. With people learning it seems easier for them to pick up and remember hypothetical and rare possibilities instead of doing the work that may lead to a proper diagnosis.

One that irks me to no end is on a family cow forum I'm on. Numerous times a year people end up with calves - or cows - that are wobbly and have foamy mouths. I ask temp, those are huge pneumonia signs. They say breathing was fine, we think it's rabies!! Rabies can happen sure, but statistically a weaned calf in fall that's down or wobbly and has a foamy mouth will have pneumonia, not rabies. Speculating gets people nowhere except with a dead animal from a preventable illness.

In those cases it's easier to just sit on your hands and not say what you're really thinking but sometimes you just can't help it.

 

[Lovegoodstock]

I agree @Blaithin if farmers are not competent in basics its frustrating, and fully agree with @bovine in stating that's what infuriates him with farmers, but hopefully there are a few that still carry the fading trait of stockmanship that don't need to call a vet or PM everything. Im friendly with an ex vet that I see socially regularly, he goes to calvings where there is a leg back, not fully back just foreleg folded under, where on arrival its given birth, lambings where its simply breached, head back, leg back, these sort of folks I agree with @bovine, but I also question whether they should be left with the responsibility of looking after animals and their welfare

 

[bovine]

@Lovegoodstock - if we had a nice story that sounded very much like a particular condition then we could work with that. In this case we don't. It's very easy assuming that you know what things die of, until you look. So many times I have gone in thinking the COD will be one thing and its something very different. Only by looking do we know. Knowledge is power. I believe doing a lot more post mortems is of vital importance and has a massive potential to improve the health of the national herd/flock. I don't believe there is anything else responsible to do in this case.

Your figures look generally good, perhaps excluding the lamb losses. Quoted figure have losses as high as 25% of lambs born that die, we have clients with that figure around 4%. Which farmers do better, work with advisors and vets? Where would I like to live if I was a sheep?

@puppet - there are good and reliable testing methodologies that are validated for diagnosing metabolic disease in PM cases.

 

[Blaithin]

I agree @Blaithin if farmers are not competent in basics its frustrating, and fully agree with @bovine in stating that's what infuriates him with farmers, but hopefully there are a few that still carry the fading trait of stockmanship that don't need to call a vet or PM everything. Im friendly with an ex vet that I see socially regularly, he goes to calvings where there is a leg back, not fully back just foreleg folded under, where on arrival its given birth, lambings where its simply breached, head back, leg back, these sort of folks I agree with @bovine, but I also question whether they should be left with the responsibility of looking after animals and their welfare

I think even a very good stockman could learn a lot doing PMs. It's not something I ever really thought of doing before but they really aren't that hard to figure out and the available knowledge can be huge.

Just as an example - at the feedlot things we could treat but died were held against us in a percentage of animals considered treatable. Other categories were things like metabolic issues or other various untreatable things.

If you had an obvious metabolic issue like bloat (fairly common there), it's handy to go no farther than saying it's bloat. But a PM can show old pneumonia which can be a cause of bloat. Not necessarily a feed issue anymore.

Or you can open the chest and see badly damaged lungs and stop at pneumonia - animals death is now a strike against you. Or go one step farther and pull out the heart and see heart failure or pericarditis as the source of infection. Now what was your lack of successful treatment has become a totally different issue.

If, as a stockman, you ever feel a PM isn't worth paying the vet for then I'd encourage you to try it yourself. I highly doubt you'd regret it (just try not to pop the rumen on your feet!)

 

[jondear]

what machine does that fit Kev ?

Well the Crystal bit would be Zetor the ball would be 3 point linkage!

 

[matthew]

I think even a very good stockman could learn a lot doing PMs. It's not something I ever really thought of doing before but they really aren't that hard to figure out and the available knowledge can be huge.

Just as an example - at the feedlot things we could treat but died were held against us in a percentage of animals considered treatable. Other categories were things like metabolic issues or other various untreatable things.

If you had an obvious metabolic issue like bloat (fairly common there), it's handy to go no farther than saying it's bloat. But a PM can show old pneumonia which can be a cause of bloat. Not necessarily a feed issue anymore.

Or you can open the chest and see badly damaged lungs and stop at pneumonia - animals death is now a strike against you. Or go one step farther and pull out the heart and see heart failure or pericarditis as the source of infection. Now what was your lack of successful treatment has become a totally different issue.

If, as a stockman, you ever feel a PM isn't worth paying the vet for then I'd encourage you to try it yourself. I highly doubt you'd regret it (just try not to pop the rumen on your feet!)

Agree with all that.
But sad that the way @bovine put the first answer to the OP, which was, err a bit short and to the point? It's not what you say, but the way...

From the other side of the coin, we had a cow this spring with no temp., but watery squits and off her feed and ears cold. She was heavy in calf, and all our usual inspections ended up with a possible LDA, and vet call out.

A young vet came, did the same inspections and said, no, abomasum was OK, but rumen function sluggish. Gave rumen cud etc. and a wide spectrum antibiotic.
48 hours later, the cow died. We asked the vet to go for a looksee at the knackers, for her benefit as much as ours. She didn't. Which was 'disappointing'. (That's code for I'm disgusted and berluddy angry)

Our knacker yard is pretty good at telling us what they find, and they said she had a badly twisted gut. So an LDA / RDA?

One unexplained death needs an explanation, but three is pretty indefensible. And anyone trying to fish out a cause, is flying blind.

 

[Kevtherev]

Cause= blackleg @GTB

 

[Dave6170]

I though blackleg doesnt usually kill adult cattle.?

 

[Northeastfarmer]

Don't know why anyone lets bovine wind them up...I've got used to his condescending tones now

Kev if it's blackleg he's probably going to have to vaccinate against it from now on

 

[GTB]

I though blackleg doesnt usually kill adult cattle.?

It does. We lost an in calf heifer years ago.

 

[neilo]

Cause= blackleg @GTB

Fortunately the vaccine is dirt cheap and effective.

Always used to be reckoned that they only needed doing as youngstock, and that would cover them. Always used to give all our dairy heifers one shot before they were turned out each year (up to calving), and very rarely lost any to it. In later years I started following the data sheet a bit more and gave 2 doses the first year, mostly as we started handling them twice for IBR vac anyway.

In support of PM's, the local hunt kennels always managed to diagnose blackleg from their freebie PM's. Presumably the symptoms are pretty clear?

 

[Bossfarmer]

Spoke to a farmer today that had two cows to die unexpectedly and one store heifer.
All well minerals etc available only thing different was they were on new reseeds?
Clostridia or would it be grass staggers?
@GTB

most likely staggers, are there mineral tubs in the field? whats all the crystal ball nonsense cows don't just drop dead for no reason and theres a limited amount of things it will be at this time of year

 

[Bossfarmer]

It does. We lost an in calf heifer years ago.

that's a heifer though we jag them before they go out, cows shouldn't get it

 

[neilo]

Out of interest, what is the accepted loss of calves from sucklers to weaning? Lambing ewe lambs to selling as shearlings? I will probably be shot down, calve 240, lost 3 calves, lambed 1300 ewe lambs, summer mastitis, on back etc and random should have been PM I lost 21, lambing I would lose a lot of lambs but all go out with one which is what I want. Cows, 2 a year?

I'm going to start shouting you down. Those loss levels are far too low and would put a lot to shame, especially considering your scale, type of cattle and your labour numbers.

My only proviso would be on how many 'a lot of lambs' is, of course. A few always seems a lot if you are any kind of stockman, IMO. I don't tend to believe anyone that claims to only lose 4% btw, unless they've only got a handful of sheep and were very lucky.

 

[Bossfarmer]

Not picking a fight @bovine , or ganging up as seems to be the case. But to say other than doing a PM, is bad advice or waste of money is an exaggeration? If someone says on here when lambs are thriving and nearly fit and they lose a few and they have not given ovivac / heptavac, surely a fair assumption pulpey, ok far from guaranteed as if no mag buckets out and a cow is on side with legs kicking or found dead with grass soiled from legs flailing isn't, but as I said earlier, people are struggling, and I will take on board bad advice or guessing a false economy, but some things can be answered and avoid an extra cost. Out of interest, what is the accepted loss of calves from sucklers to weaning? Lambing ewe lambs to selling as shearlings? I will probably be shot down, calve 240, lost 3 calves, lambed 1300 ewe lambs, summer mastitis, on back etc and random should have been PM I lost 21, lambing I would lose a lot of lambs but all go out with one which is what I want. Cows, 2 a year?

3 calves and 2 cows from a 240 cow herd? this is hard to believe, you must have very easy calving cows/no scour/no pneumonia/fluke in your area, what breed are you working with?

 

[moo-baa]

Poison a possibility. Hemlock is a terrible plant if cattle have started pushing into the hedges or ditches have been dug out. They cannot distinguish between cow parsley and hemlock when the plant is young. I think they only have to eat 0.4% of there bodyweight and will kill them within 1/2 hour.

Also lead poisoning. It is rare but any old paint and batteries left lying around can give you a problem. Contaminated water?
As well as the normal more common things like staggers and clostridial disease.

 

[roscoe erf]

So did Hitler

thought he only had 1 ball and himmlers were very small

 

[The Son]

Any oak trees round the field, lost three cattle to acorn poising last year.

 

[Mickstup]

Local story about a farmer losing young lambs, not thriving then dying, pm was advised, so next one he saw he knocked it on the head and sent it for a pm, report came back, died from a massive blow to the head.

 

[czechmate]

3 calves and 2 cows from a 240 cow herd? this is hard to believe, you must have very easy calving cows/no scour/no pneumonia/fluke in your area, what breed are you working with?

The French have some sort of awards. Golden hoof I think it is. A guy (who didn't win!) had 100% calves to cows. Wife was reading it as I can't, yea yea, I say, probably got 3 cows. Nope. 230 calves from 230 cows. I can only dream of such results but we do improve each year