Using high seed rates to make no-till work on heavier soil?

[Feldspar]

why bother wasting money on a test then ? JDI

might as well sack your agronomist and apply everything you can get just in case he misses a problem

If you have 30% microdochium is that too much, or is it OK? It's a judgement call.

I would certainly use some treated seed each year. Wouldn't want to risk having the whole lot test high and have to buy in new seed.

 

[Cutlerstom]

Is that what you are testing for to prevent bunt? % microdochium? What are the parameters you use when testing to see if you need to dress or not? Genuine interest as I would like to reduce my seed costs where possible, but also need to increase rates!

 

[Feldspar]

Is that what you are testing for to prevent bunt? % microdochium? What are the parameters you use when testing to see if you need to dress or not? Genuine interest as I would like to reduce my seed costs where possible, but also need to increase rates!

http://www.niab.com/pages/id/141/Seed_Pathology

 

[Tractor Boy]

Most of these seed borne diseases like bunt and smut have over the years been almost eradicated. However, I'm wondering if there is a similar effect as "herd immunity" often talked about when discussing human vaccination. Surely with more people trying to save untreated seed there is going to be a big return of these diseases. I for one would be a bit fed up if a neighbour grew a field of bunt next door to me.

 

[Louis Mc]

Stone??!! Do your yields get measured in rods and bushels Louis?

arent your speed limits in miles per hour.....??

 

[Cutlerstom]

arent your speed limits in miles per hour.....??

Touché

 

[martian]

Is that what you are testing for to prevent bunt? % microdochium? What are the parameters you use when testing to see if you need to dress or not? Genuine interest as I would like to reduce my seed costs where possible, but also need to increase rates!

0% bunt is the requirement. Microdochium %age just tells you that you want to up the seed rate a bit further, the infected seedlings won't make it, in all probability. The joy of untreated FSS is that you pay royalty per acre rather than per tonne, so there is very little cost in whacking up the seed-rate. You tend to get faster germination and emergence with untreated too. Win/win/win

 

[Cutlerstom]

0% bunt is the requirement. Microdochium %age just tells you that you want to up the seed rate a bit further, the infected seedlings won't make it, in all probability. The joy of untreated FSS is that you pay royalty per acre rather than per tonne, so there is very little cost in whacking up the seed-rate. You tend to get faster germination and emergence with untreated too. Win/win/win

Thanks John. I need to get braver. presumably you get it cleaned? Or do you just go straight off the heap?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Thanks John. I need to get braver. presumably you get it cleaned? Or do you just go straight off the heap?

Ive cleaned some of this years beans and spring barley in the grain drier. Will let you know how it goes. I had reso in to do winter wheat with deter and ive bought winter barley and spring wheat seed this year. I tend to swap it about a bit and buy a bit of all sorts

 

[martian]

Thanks John. I need to get braver. presumably you get it cleaned? Or do you just go straight off the heap?

If the combine sample is good enough, we'll bucket it straight off the heap. But our bucket is 6 inches wider than the hopper so it's easier to put seed through pre-cleaner and into a bin from where we can shoot it into big bags which makes the drillman self-sufficent. You can sieve the weedier seed out with the weeds with a big enough bottom sieve, to give yourself a decent start.

 

[Louis Mc]

We drilled a lot Straight off the combine this year.

 

[Feldspar]

Different country and climate, but still a useful way of thinking about this topic: https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...environments/BFCD620B82EC7CDCFDCABDEF7715BD38.

Basically they are saying that establishing really high wheat populations in weedy situations is better than lower ones. More specifically to the topic of this thread, the penalty from ending up with populations up to 400 plants / sq m wrt bushel weight seems not to a big concern. 4-5% yield reduction in the really thick bits (in the absence of weeds), but I think the yield reduction in the too thin bits (due to establishment losses) when using a more normal seed rate is going to be larger.

 

[Cutlerstom]

Different country and climate, but still a useful way of thinking about this topic: https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...environments/BFCD620B82EC7CDCFDCABDEF7715BD38.

Basically they are saying that establishing really high wheat populations in weedy situations is better than lower ones. More specifically to the topic of this thread, the penalty from ending up with populations up to 400 plants / sq m wrt bushel weight seems not to a big concern. 4-5% yield reduction in the really thick bits (in the absence of weeds), but I think the yield reduction in the too thin bits (due to establishment losses) when using a more normal seed rate is going to be larger.

Interesting they found a yield drop off at all at populations of 400/m2. The average of the highest yielding YEN entries Last year had 423 plants/m2 and were drilled on average at 528 seeds.

 

[warksfarmer]

Different country and climate, but still a useful way of thinking about this topic: https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...environments/BFCD620B82EC7CDCFDCABDEF7715BD38.

Basically they are saying that establishing really high wheat populations in weedy situations is better than lower ones. More specifically to the topic of this thread, the penalty from ending up with populations up to 400 plants / sq m wrt bushel weight seems not to a big concern. 4-5% yield reduction in the really thick bits (in the absence of weeds), but I think the yield reduction in the too thin bits (due to establishment losses) when using a more normal seed rate is going to be larger.

600 seeds is where we've been the last few years for winter wheat, spring wheat and spring barley. There's scope to go higher as well.

 

[mikep]

The question of seed rates is difficult and depends on more factors than just date. High seed rates to chase yield are ok on high potential soils but on lower yielding are not such a good idea.
We are lower yielding and have BG so my aim is try to out BG the BG.
BG is a great scavenger of nutrients but is only shallow rooted. Most wheats are bred to perform well in high fertility using high applied nitrogen as such they feed quite shallow as well. Older wheats had to live on what was in the soil and as it was ploughed several times it was well distributed in the profile. As such they tend to put the feeding roots down more evenly through the profile and have larger overall root mass. If all the fertility is spread like this then the deeper rooted plants make better use of it than BG they grow quicker. If top dressing can be delayed then this also helps to disadvantage the BG.
In these situations then early sowing at a lower seed rate is better as tillering plants tend to be more prostate and competitive.
This year has been a real learning curve with older varieties most of which look pretty poor as i was going by modern reasoning and they have suffered from too high a seed rate and too little deep food. This year they shall be going in at 60kg/ha in general and some trials at 40kg/ha and 30kg/ha as where i got it right by chance they look stunning. Not expecting high yields but so much more interesting and challenging than formulaic farming.
This will obviously not work for most modern varieties but there are some lesser ones that do exhibit some retro traits and i shall try a small area at similar rates for a laugh. The old varieties will be planted late august or early September to maximise early growth.

Low seed rate of heritage photo today enjoying the drought so far.

 

[mikep]

More reasonings behind the natural growth properties of old wheats is the fascinating maths. Consider a low yield of old money 30cwt. Now the old wheats gave a good sample with bushels of 62-67lb grains were bold and not a lot smaller than today. So if we look at the tiller numbers produced by 3rd node and projected this to average yield it would be huge so what happened.
it's all about biomass. The old wheats grab what they can when they can and produce tillers these help photosynthesis and weed control and increase sugar reserves. When it starts to set grains it will set them according to reserves and ruthlessly 'eat' tillers to feed grains leaving the surviving stems for late production and finishing. Very good system and i must congratulate YEN on getting there at last only a few centuries late.

 

[Flat 10]

The question of seed rates is difficult and depends on more factors than just date. High seed rates to chase yield are ok on high potential soils but on lower yielding are not such a good idea.
We are lower yielding and have BG so my aim is try to out BG the BG.
BG is a great scavenger of nutrients but is only shallow rooted. Most wheats are bred to perform well in high fertility using high applied nitrogen as such they feed quite shallow as well. Older wheats had to live on what was in the soil and as it was ploughed several times it was well distributed in the profile. As such they tend to put the feeding roots down more evenly through the profile and have larger overall root mass. If all the fertility is spread like this then the deeper rooted plants make better use of it than BG they grow quicker. If top dressing can be delayed then this also helps to disadvantage the BG.
In these situations then early sowing at a lower seed rate is better as tillering plants tend to be more prostate and competitive.
This year has been a real learning curve with older varieties most of which look pretty poor as i was going by modern reasoning and they have suffered from too high a seed rate and too little deep food. This year they shall be going in at 60kg/ha in general and some trials at 40kg/ha and 30kg/ha as where i got it right by chance they look stunning. Not expecting high yields but so much more interesting and challenging than formulaic farming.
This will obviously not work for most modern varieties but there are some lesser ones that do exhibit some retro traits and i shall try a small area at similar rates for a laugh. The old varieties will be planted late august or early September to maximise early growth.

Low seed rate of heritage photo today enjoying the drought so far.
View attachment 507086

Interesting. please share as much as you are able.

 

[mikep]

Interesting. please share as much as you are able.

Will happily share more but early days and still very much got L plates on. Pity it takes a year to grow as a reset button would be great!
Main thing that I have learnt is that our idea of traditional wheat farming is more 1950 based than 1590 and that comes as a shock but of course 50s varieties were of the modern improved types with very few heritage lines surviving.
The most interesting thing is that some historic methods recommend two rows 10" apart on beds 6' apart (yes that's right two rows then 6 foot gap) mind boggling but it worked for a while but they misunderstood the nutrient cycle and ran into problems. The fact that the yield from that planting plan surpassed closer rows or broadcast is food for thought.

 

[Flat 10]

Will happily share more but early days and still very much got L plates on. Pity it takes a year to grow as a reset button would be great!
Main thing that I have learnt is that our idea of traditional wheat farming is more 1950 based than 1590 and that comes as a shock but of course 50s varieties were of the modern improved types with very few heritage lines surviving.
The most interesting thing is that some historic methods recommend two rows 10" apart on beds 6' apart (yes that's right two rows then 6 foot gap) mind boggling but it worked for a while but they misunderstood the nutrient cycle and ran into problems. The fact that the yield from that planting plan surpassed closer rows or broadcast is food for thought.

I have started to take a small interest in historical farming. A lot of what you read is not as accurate as it might be. (not commenting on your info just in general!)

 

[mikep]

I have started to take a small interest in historical farming. A lot of what you read is not as accurate as it might be. (not commenting on your info just in general!)

It's no different to today a lot of BS about but find reasonable commentators and sift the wheat from the chaff so as to speak.
There was all sorts of crap about eg how detrimental worms were but apply your own knowledge and use maths and you can see how the wierd to us makes sense even though it was all guesswork to them.