Why are UCN bodies not allowed in competition?

[Ley253]

Not to mention, organising the vintage qualifiers, and sorting out the competitors that come through. Representing us on the world organisation,scouring the country for national sites.Running judges seminars.

 

[arcobob]

so you would make provisions' for all but world style, your having a giraffe,



there is already a system in place for the above, It's called penalty points given out by steward's,
or are you suggesting the top 3 should still win, second and third, but with less prize money,

Read the rule book John. Not all indiscretions are covered by fixed penalties. Other penalties are to be decided by the Executive Committee and if you don`t understand what that means you have been asleep for the past two years or in complete denial.

 

[arcobob]

Not to mention, organising the vintage qualifiers, and sorting out the competitors that come through. Representing us on the world organisation,scouring the country for national sites.Running judges seminars.

No provision for World Style qualifiers then. Why is that?

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

Read the rule book John. Not all indiscretions are covered by fixed penalties. Other penalties are to be decided by the Executive Committee and if you don`t understand what that means you have been asleep for the past two years or in complete denial.

what is not covered by the rules

 

[arcobob]

what is not covered by the rules

Handling is covered by the rules but not fixed penalties.

 

[Ley253]

The chosen few = the handful of ploughman who are the ones that get chosen to represent the society at the world's.

This is the elite that are protected via means of fair an foul.

The class I choose was easy as the number of world style entrants limit the amount of matches also the equipment and transport limit new entrants

Protected from what? Spread the prize money further?Well thats not on, all it would do is reward the mediocre, and so lower the standard. There are very few matches without a world style class, and even then world style ploughs are allowed in the two furrow mounted class.( where, they are often defeated by the smaller, vintage ploughs.) Cost is another red herring, just look around at any match, and you will see nice polished 4x4 vehicles, with a shiny trailer, carrying a fergy! Then the driver will tell you that he is in that class because its cheap! In most cases, that outfit will have cost more than my tractor, plough, and truck put together. And cost more to run!
Entry fees go to help finance the match, not just a popular part of it, and all competitors should aspire to getting to the world match, and winning it, not just becoming a big fish, in a small pond. That being the case, prizes should be restricted to the first three or four, if only to "encourage the others".

 

[Ley253]

No provision for World Style qualifiers then. Why is that?

World style competitors have to be nominated by an affiliated society, so usually that societies match takes the place of a qualifier.

 

[arcobob]

World style competitors have to be nominated by an affiliated society, so usually that societies match takes the place of a qualifier.

Why is that?

Protected from what? Spread the prize money further?Well thats not on, all it would do is reward the mediocre, and so lower the standard. There are very few matches without a world style class, and even then world style ploughs are allowed in the two furrow mounted class.( where, they are often defeated by the smaller, vintage ploughs.) Cost is another red herring, just look around at any match, and you will see nice polished 4x4 vehicles, with a shiny trailer, carrying a fergy! Then the driver will tell you that he is in that class because its cheap! In most cases, that outfit will have cost more than my tractor, plough, and truck put together. And cost more to run!
Entry fees go to help finance the match, not just a popular part of it, and all competitors should aspire to getting to the world match, and winning it, not just becoming a big fish, in a small pond. That being the case, prizes should be restricted to the first three or four, if only to "encourage the others".

There are no matches in Norfolk for World style classes, either conventional or reversible, and very few elsewhere in East Anglia. Cambridgeshire used to run one but support was very poor. Why should all competitors aspire to getting to the world match? Very few would be able afford to travel abroad with their gear never mind about buy it and run it. There are so many who have made an effort to go down that route and have reverted to the vintage classes, not because they like rusty ploughs and old tractors but because the expenditure is not sustainable for them in World Style . You quote shiny 4X4s but these are multi purpose vehicles which double up as family cars in many cases.
Your situation is perhaps unusual in that you appear to have no family commitments, your life is ploughing and you are a good engineer who seems to have only yourself to consider when it comes to how you spend your time and money. Not everybody is in the same boat.

 

[Ley253]

Why is that?

There are no matches in Norfolk for World style classes, either conventional or reversible, and very few elsewhere in East Anglia. Cambridgeshire used to run one but support was very poor. Why should all competitors aspire to getting to the world match? Very few would be able afford to travel abroad with their gear never mind about buy it and run it. There are so many who have made an effort to go down that route and have reverted to the vintage classes, not because they like rusty ploughs and old tractors but because the expenditure is not sustainable for them in World Style . You quote shiny 4X4s but these are multi purpose vehicles which double up as family cars in many cases.
Your situation is perhaps unusual in that you appear to have no family commitments, your life is ploughing and you are a good engineer who seems to have only yourself to consider when it comes to how you spend your time and money. Not everybody is in the same boat.

First point, its the way its always been done, originally to cut down the numbers, there used to be more than eighty competitors in the class, and it was the only class in the match.
Why should all competitors aspire to go to the world? Because, its the peak of perfection, as it is in any sport. Being able to go, has no bearing, being good enough to be chosen has. Yes, I am on my own, and perhaps things which are easy to myself are not so for others, but that doesnt alter the fact that once the kit is purchased, remaining costs are similar. Yes, I do, for some unknown reason live for my ploughing, others live for the local pub, favourite football team etc. If you want to do well in any form of competition, it has to be the be all and end all, no half measures.

 

[arcobob]

First point, its the way its always been done, originally to cut down the numbers, there used to be more than eighty competitors in the class, and it was the only class in the match.
Why should all competitors aspire to go to the world? Because, its the peak of perfection, as it is in any sport. Being able to go, has no bearing, being good enough to be chosen has. Yes, I am on my own, and perhaps things which are easy to myself are not so for others, but that doesnt alter the fact that once the kit is purchased, remaining costs are similar. Yes, I do, for some unknown reason live for my ploughing, others live for the local pub, favourite football team etc. If you want to do well in any form of competition, it has to be the be all and end all, no half measures.

I did not mean to offend and am pleased you understood my point of view. I admire your single mindedness but unless I am mistaken the final push has never been put to the test in your case. I know of one or two who have put business and family under considerable stress in order to achieve their goals and most people would not even begin to venture down that route.
Many other sports are supported by lottery funding, spectator appeal and private sponsorship and most of the participants are now professionals. I can never envisage this happening in world ploughing so participation at the highest level will always be down to those with the deepest pockets. When I was young with a family I represented Great Britain at rifle shooting. I had a full time job but all my contemporaries, like myself were amateurs. A few served in the armed forces and received some support. It was not a spectator sport so there was no help from outside but I guess today that there is some support from the Sports Council or the Lottery but not much. I would imagine that the majority of participants are still amateurs with full time jobs and I guess that will always be the case. Equipment is pretty well standard and travelling costs relatively low, in other words it is widely available and sustainable.

 

[Dealer]

Spread the prize money further?Well thats not on, all it would do is reward the mediocre, and so lower the standard

This is exactly my point you have made it better than I have

you have ploughed at the same matches as me recently in your class you have ploughed against 1 or 2 British champions and taken a prize place because the numbers entered have defaulted you a prize place.

At the same matches I have been ploughing against 3 maybe 4 British champions and had to work very hard to get to middle of the table. this is what id was pointing out, the money is not the reason we get to the field but all classes have to stand on there own 2 feet, take the fergie boys they are denied classes at some matches because of lack of numbers but they are equal to the world style numbers but because its world style then its ok (the protected few)....

World style competitors have to be nominated by an affiliated society, so usually that societies match takes the place of a qualifier.

Is this not the chosen few then..

World style competitors have to be nominated by an affiliated society, so usually that societies match takes the place of a qualifier.

The protected

So Harry you have ploughed in the Nationals recently, had you won a match in the 12 month period prior?, that would have gained you the right in theory to enter , as all the boys in the vintage / classics had to earn their entry... The protected or cannon fodder for the elite few to justify their title as national champion as winning against 3 instead of 12 would not give it the same qudos..

 

[Dealer]

Not to mention, organising the vintage qualifiers, and sorting out the competitors that come through. Representing us on the world organisation,scouring the country for national sites.Running judges seminars.

Would match ploughing cease to exist if we did not enter the worlds - not on your life would it, so its not that important to the sport or the masses that plough in matches up and down the country, but its a great reason to keep a few people in a position to travel the world on expenses to (represent) the sport that could and would survive without the Worlds and dare say if the nationals did not happen then not much would change either.

A few people think they are more important than they actually are in the great scheme of things.

 

[arcobob]

World style competitors have to be nominated by an affiliated society, so usually that societies match takes the place of a qualifier.

There are an awful lot of affiliated societies, some of whom do not appear to run matches. Some, I am sure, were formed to "buy" entries to the Nationals. A two tier system undoubtedly exists and those in power have no intention of changing it because the SOP exists primarily to qualify ploughmen for the Worlds and everything else is a supporting sideshow.

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

There are an awful lot of affiliated societies, some of whom do not appear to run matches. Some, I am sure, were formed to "buy" entries to the Nationals.

just looked at the SOP website, and they list 21 qualifier matches, and Dishforth is no listed so 22 that i know of,
there is about 26/26 in a class, so how do you come to the thinking of there is lots get in through the back door to the national ?

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

because the SOP exists primarily to qualify ploughmen for the Worlds

that is and has always been the case right from the word go, have you just realized this now, that was there main aim,

 

[Dealer]

Don't we know it, but its still happy to take the cash from everyone else to fund it, and give matches enough numbers to justify having one.

why does it not just run world style matches and split off the rest of us rubbish to set it own agenda

I wonder how many members would be able to plough in the worlds if they could? I mean what the number of world style members compared to the other classes and none ploughing members.

bet they would struggle to raise enough to buy grass seed never mind pay a full time administrator.

Taken from the horses mouth (sop website) a bit misleading if you were not in the know and new to ploughing thou isn't it!

were does it say world style exclusive!!!

The Society of Ploughmen was founded in 1972. It is a registered charity run by volunteers from the farming community. It is responsible for the organisation of the British National Ploughing Championships and for managing the England World and European Ploughing Teams.

With more than 250 local ploughing societies affiliated to it and a membership drawn from ploughmen and women from all over the world, the Society is a vibrant, thriving organisation and an influential member of the World Ploughing Organization.

 

[arcobob]

that is and has always been the case right from the word go, have you just realized this now, that was there main aim,

I realised it a long while ago John and that is why I ceased to be a member, 2011 to be precise.

 

[Ley253]

This is exactly my point you have made it better than I have

you have ploughed at the same matches as me recently in your class you have ploughed against 1 or 2 British champions and taken a prize place because the numbers entered have defaulted you a prize place.

At the same matches I have been ploughing against 3 maybe 4 British champions and had to work very hard to get to middle of the table. this is what id was pointing out, the money is not the reason we get to the field but all classes have to stand on there own 2 feet, take the fergie boys they are denied classes at some matches because of lack of numbers but they are equal to the world style numbers but because its world style then its ok (the protected few)....

Is this not the chosen few then..

The protected

So Harry you have ploughed in the Nationals recently, had you won a match in the 12 month period prior?, that would have gained you the right in theory to enter , as all the boys in the vintage / classics had to earn their entry... The protected or cannon fodder for the elite few to justify their title as national champion as winning against 3 instead of 12 would not give it the same qudos..

I really think you need to have a rethink, or learn to count. There were six entries at Carmarthen, Eight at Llangors and similar at Hereford. Sarn also had around six, and unlike your class, all were present, or past champions. I won my prizes fair and square, not just for being there.

 

[Dealer]

You failed to mention bridgnorth. Only 2 entries

 

[Dealer]

I really think you need to have a rethink, or learn to count. There were six entries at Carmarthen, Eight at Llangors and similar at Hereford. Sarn also had around six, and unlike your class, all were present, or past champions. I won my prizes fair and square, not just for being there.

At all those matches you mention had 3 or more past champions.

And at Whitchurch 5 I think at least

You in your previous posts have highlighted to lack of numbers so I don't need to remind you off the numbers