Wide tyres, duals or tracks.

[Devil's advocate]

It's one of those very fine balancing acts, isn't it?
There is a limit as to what you can do towards "least harm" while keeping your business running, and also a limit as to what rotations you can run.

Tongue in cheek here, when you say "better crops" did you mean bigger crops - or more profitable crops? I see a massive divergence down here, eg what used to be considered a good grain area no longer is - they can still grow the crops, but not make any money from them.
The big rise in OSR is a part of the problem, as brassicas don't form mycorrhizal associations, every year in rape means a year the AMF are diminishing .
I think that is maybe more detrimental to soil fungi than a well-timed fungicide pass even for insurance purposes?
Hard to say, but something is wrecking the soil ecology around the district, that much is apparent!
What is causing the most stress is hard to determine.

My cost of production in real terms will be much less. But modern economics mean it is harder now than 1979 to make a profit. That is not my fault. A 30cwt/acre crop of wheat paid then. We need 60cwt/acre now.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

My cost of production in real terms will be much less. But modern economics mean it is harder now than 1979 to make a profit. That is not my fault. A 30cwt/acre crop of wheat paid then. We need 60cwt/acre now.

That's a massive issue going forward, isn't it?

The world needs good topsoil far more than it needs food... especially looking forward 20 years

 

[Brisel]

Bacteria do, if their numbers get out of whack, which is generally why N addicts are pissing into the wind with their soils
Add a bit of "insurance" fungicide and it's a firstclass ticket to Shitsville, and will never be sustainably profitable

Plenty of growers doing conservation ag cropping with nitrogen and fungicides successfully. It might never achieve the perfect balance of fungi and bacteria but it pays the bills and is better than the even more intensive production systems they had before. BeIng right and broke is no good to anyone.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Plenty of growers doing conservation ag cropping with nitrogen and fungicides successfully. It might never achieve the perfect balance of fungi and bacteria but it pays the bills and is better than the even more intensive production systems they had before. BeIng right and broke is no good to anyone.

Quite, it's simply an interesting trajectory for high-value land, maybe commodity production isn't the be-all?

 

[Gerbert]

I really like the ctf system, I have red somewhere that in denmark it already is quite popular in grass, everything on 12 meter. I am looking into it quite seriously but on 8.5 meter. Great on wet land, a ditch between every track.
Thing is I'd need to get back to a smaller rake and a bigger slurry injector. An injector at that width but lightweight enough so my tank can handle it is expensive, and it needs a mod so no slurry is spread on the tramlines.
I reckon in 10 years max I'll have it done.

 

[fudge]

Wide tyres and duals !

Wide tyres and duals !

completely agree! Nothing about wide tyres that precludes duels. We run 710s on 200hp tractor but would have no hesitation in buying duels if required.

 

[D14]

I have duals and terras here but duals are much more convenient and some say better than terras.

I often wonder though if they are a sticking plaster for a bad system. I find with zero till I need neither as the soil self structures and carries traffic as long as you are sensible about when you go on it.

For me you shouldn't need duals or terras if you haven't over loosened or worked the soil and if you keep off it when it's too wet. As is often the case, less is more.

We moved away from Terra tyres because they were no good in a traction situation such as a stubble cultivator. They are only really useful for low draft top work in my opinion. Dual wheels are ok but if you are running 3m wide kit they generally are to wide unless you start turning rear tyres around to run closer to the chassis. So really tracks I would say. Having used tracks in the past they are fine in every situation except when its slimy on the surface then a twin track won't even turn itself around let alone with something dragging on the back.

 

[Brisel]

We moved away from Terra tyres because they were no good in a traction situation such as a stubble cultivator. They are only really useful for low draft top work in my opinion. Dual wheels are ok but if you are running 3m wide kit they generally are to wide unless you start turning rear tyres around to run closer to the chassis. So really tracks I would say. Having used tracks in the past they are fine in every situation except when its slimy on the surface then a twin track won't even turn itself around let alone with something dragging on the back.

You're right about Terra Tyres. The low surface area of the bead on the rims with 4-8 psi means high torque spins them on the rims which destroys them. Modern lower profile tyres on tall rims are much better for this job.

4 track crawlers are better for greasy situations but not ideal. a Quadtrac will go places a twin track machine cannot but when it's wet on top but dry and hard underneath high torque tracks are useless. A cleated tyre will dig down until it finds grip. Arguably, you shouldn't be out there anyway if it's that wet!

 

[fudge]

As an eccentric small scale grower, who is obsessed by mechanical damage to soil, I would never choose to use a 22 tonne quad trac. Overall weight does have an implication for soil structure IMO.

 

[Brisel]

As an eccentric small scale grower, who is obsessed by mechanical damage to soil, I would never choose to use a 22 tonne quad trac. Overall weight does have an implication for soil structure IMO.

Very much so. Deep compaction is due to axle weights, not surface area.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Here you go then, @fudge

85 psi farm average, on the penetrometer

Not a light rig by broadacre standards, but weighs in at 6150kg, as she sits there.
We take compaction a little too seriously here, hence the summertime drilling 'on the green', but it pays off when you hear the last rain dragging air down through your soil.

 

[Two Tone]

We moved away from Terra tyres because they were no good in a traction situation such as a stubble cultivator. They are only really useful for low draft top work in my opinion. Dual wheels are ok but if you are running 3m wide kit they generally are to wide unless you start turning rear tyres around to run closer to the chassis. So really tracks I would say. Having used tracks in the past they are fine in every situation except when its slimy on the surface then a twin track won't even turn itself around let alone with something dragging on the back.

You're right about Terra Tyres. The low surface area of the bead on the rims with 4-8 psi means high torque spins them on the rims which destroys them. Modern lower profile tyres on tall rims are much better for this job.

4 track crawlers are better for greasy situations but not ideal. a Quadtrac will go places a twin track machine cannot but when it's wet on top but dry and hard underneath high torque tracks are useless. A cleated tyre will dig down until it finds grip. Arguably, you shouldn't be out there anyway if it's that wet!

In the early '80s in Suffolk, I had an Artic John Deere 8430 pulling an 8 (12") furrow double-offset Dowdeswell semi-mounted plough.
We had the choice of having it with either four wide wheels tyres or 8 18x38 wheels and tyres. We were strongly advised to go for the 8 wheels for better traction. Especially as we were ploughing with all wheels out of the furrow.

We'd plough about 30 acres a day with it. The engine blew up twice, even though we changed its oil every 100 hours! So we changed it all for a Ford TW25 and a fully mounted Dowdeswell DP7E+1 6 furrow (14").
It also ploughed 30 acres a day! Ploughing in-furrow and with a much quicker turnaround at each end makes all the difference.

30 - 40 years later, now ploughing in-furrow with a JCB Fastrack 2155 with a 5 furrow Kvernland vari-width, usually set at 16", I can usually plough at least 30 acres /day, but in much smaller fields here on the Glos, Oxon, Warks borders. The trick is to make sure that forward speed and furrow width is set to make sure the skimmers work properly to bury BG seed properly.

As the Fastrac is also used with a demount sprayer, often used with 800 width wheels on the back, we bought a wheel trolly to change the wheels over from its normal ones easily. This also comes in very handing putting the Dual wheels on the NH 7050.


Before anybody asks why I use the Fastrac for ploughing instead of the NH 7050, the reason is because it's much more comfortable to drive and faster, despite needing no front end weights whatsoever. The Fastrac struggle to lift my combi-drill, so this goes on the 7050.

 

[Lowland1]

As an eccentric small scale grower, who is obsessed by mechanical damage to soil, I would never choose to use a 22 tonne quad trac. Overall weight does have an implication for soil structure IMO.

a large estate across the fen from us would never put a tractor on ploughed land without it being on terra tyres at the time we thought the tractors they were using (Ford 8210's and 7710's ) were big anyway but they made good seedbeds with dutch or parmiter harrows. Now it's changed hands and is being quadtrac(ked) to death the centre's of the fields are about a foot lower than the outsides. It's very impressive to see a Quadtrac and 18 row maize drill but you do wonder if the soil can ever recover from the hammering its getting.

 

[Bob lincs]

completely agree! Nothing about wide tyres that precludes duels. We run 710s on 200hp tractor but would have no hesitation in buying duels if required.

We’re running 800’s with 520 duals on the rear and 600’s with 600 duals on the front .

 

[Devil's advocate]

As an eccentric small scale grower, who is obsessed by mechanical damage to soil, I would never choose to use a 22 tonne quad trac. Overall weight does have an implication for soil structure IMO.

There are lots of small crawlers available now, maybe not sold in our market but steel track versions too.

But I totally agree about quad tracks, was told by a friend about how the company he worked for had flattened drainage pipes 4 foot deep on light sandy land.

 

[fudge]

Horses for courses! Why go for a small crawler if a 3.6 tonne tractor does the job? I don’t see the need. Really whatever the equipment, it’s the other half of the equation which is more important. Don’t use it when it’s too wet.

 

[AFM]

I would go for duals. They are better in the wet (very wet) as they don’t create a wave. Also much easier to put on/take off.

 

[Devil's advocate]

Horses for courses! Why go for a small crawler if a 3.6 tonne tractor does the job? I don’t see the need. Really whatever the equipment, it’s the other half of the equation which is more important. Don’t use it when it’s too wet.

I was been theroetical.

I do so much road work only tyres are practical.

But I do remember back in the 80's the world record wheat grower of the time. Did all cultivation operations with a crawler.

The smartest fields locally are owned by a match plough expert. For a grass reseed he only uses fergie 35, 10 inch furrows, mutiple passes with dutch harrow, grass seed box, chain harrows & cambridge roll. I've never seen fields germinate so evenly.

I'm sure after this season, there will be lots of small crawlers working harvesting rigs in South Lincs. AND LOTS OF RIVER DREDGING.

 

[Mr Charisma]

Always used to run a couple of tractors on dual wheels., drill tractor on duals all around.. When we went up a size in tractor we ended up on 710's on a JD and a Magnum. I felt that 710's alone were not enough to support the weight of a Magnum especially when conditions are tender underfoot........ Magnum went down the road and we settled into lighter 200 hoss tractors on decentish tyres,,,,,, but with another tractor change this year I find myself looking for a set of dual wheels, time will tell if we go full circle again

 

[yellow belly]

Always used to run a couple of tractors on dual wheels., drill tractor on duals all around.. When we went up a size in tractor we ended up on 710's on a JD and a Magnum. I felt that 710's alone were not enough to support the weight of a Magnum especially when conditions are tender underfoot........ Magnum went down the road and we settled into lighter 200 hoss tractors on decentish tyres,,,,,, but with another tractor change this year I find myself looking for a set of dual wheels, time will tell if we go full circle again

The 800 38 tyre will carry a lot of load at lower pressure shame it dos not fit on lower hp tractors easier to swap than duels