Will many farms/estates be for sale in 2022,

[Spencer]

Did you not see on another thread the $169 million dollar loss on a US vertical farm.

My point

 

[livestock 1]

What happens when the Labour government get in and tighten up the benign tax regime?

We just had a labour budget

 

[Bossfarmer]

Don't know with you down South but here in Scotland all land transactions, including sale price, can be viewed online after a few weeks of completion of legalities

where?

 

[farmerman]

is it ? what else could i have bought 5yrs ago than has doubled in value whilst also carrying significant tax advantages ?

pretty decent investment imo !

I get your point to a degree but a big advantage you had was a captive audience who identified that piece of land strategically and they waved the compulsory purchase so its a win for them and you in some ways they didn’t have to pay industrial value and too keep you onboard\happier about it they was willing to pay more than agricultural value so everyone’s a winner as they say..therefore I would say your figures a bit over inflated… I would doubt if you put another 10 acre block for sale you would have such a captive audience willing to stretch the extra mile to secure it imo…

 

[jendan]

Land agents will tell you that's already factored
into the value.

Land Agents will tell you anything. How on earth do they know what Reevonomics will look like ? She probably doesnt even know herself yet. If all this land is changing hands at £20,000/acre plus,then why dont the published averages show this ? There isnt a vast acreage sold every year,so even a few parcels at £20,000 would be bound to affect the average i would have thought.

 

[Clive]

Yes I’m not saying in all cases these prices aren’t achieved on certain bits and pieces of land were two people are desperate for it for Cgt purposes but the norm is no where near 20k… I appreciate yours is compulsory so it’s a lot different but your piece at 20k or above is in a strategic location for them and yes they might of paid slightly over value but it doesn’t matter they have targets to meet and too keep network going we’re small boys in the grand scheme of things your 10 acres is probably the cheapest in the whole equation and is peanuts to a company like them in relation to farmers.. if a developer came knocking on your door and offered you that amount you’ll laugh him out the door let’s be honest..

you might buy at same level but doesn’t mean next bloke behind you is could be 5-8k cheaper for all you know your shooting in the dark with these sealed bids and agent is bound to say just a little more blah blah blah. surely if it’s just for cgt purposes your best bet would be to double what you could in your area and invest it in Lincolnshire or a cheaper area.. if it’s to farm aswell near your steading I appreciate it’s a different ballgame

compulsory purchases doesn’t pay a £ more than they have to - price is agreed by agents and solicitors siting recent actual sales as evidence

it’s a very real value in our area

when we had to sell a bit compulsory purchase for the m6 toll we couldn’t replace land locally with the amount paid at the time - it’s never generous ime

 

[Clive]

I think in my area ( Lincolnshire) land reached it's peak around 2014/5 since then it appears to have held its's own/ slight decrease in value depending on locality. So for nearly the last decade the value of land has plateaued. I have often heard Lincolnshire regarded as the land of milk and honey but surprised that many could sell elsewhere and farm double the acreage in Lincolnshire than where they currently farm does not add up to me. I will admit storage/ rental units/ horses/diversification is very hit and miss and not as popular as some areas with larger nearby towns/ cities.

In Clive's scenario if a utility etc wanted to acquire some land they had strategically identified I was told they will in the first instance if it only effects one landowner, cheaper to offer an above market price than go down the costly, time consuming compulsory purchase route.

they did go down the compulsory purchase route, we had no choice other than to sell , its not above market price

 

[Clive]

I get your point to a degree but a big advantage you had was a captive audience who identified that piece of land strategically and they waved the compulsory purchase so its a win for them and you in some ways they didn’t have to pay industrial value and too keep you onboard\happier about it they was willing to pay more than agricultural value so everyone’s a winner as they say..therefore I would say your figures a bit over inflated… I would doubt if you put another 10 acre block for sale you would have such a captive audience willing to stretch the extra mile to secure it imo…

it’s compulsory purchase - no negotiation on our part, we get what they pay based on other parcels sold locally recently

 

[Clive]

So he's paid £25k an acre now, and you think it will be worth what in 5 years

well inflation is currently running at 10% plus. - land is not immune

 

[Clive]

That increase is only realisable if you cash it though.
I would consider a 'return' to be what the investment is yielding.

As for tax efficiency, you need to be making summat taxable to worry about that.....and simply farming the land isn't likely to put you in a big tax worry.

you can store wealth in cash or in assets - the later is usually the safer (and less taxed) option of the 2

 

[steveR]

Change of government and a massive tax change to
pay for the run away NHS budget.
If you think about it there were massive landed estates
in the victorian era even greater than the big farms
of today but events change everything .

Yep, some massive Estate sales from about 1905 onwards. And again post-WW, the end of an era.

Around here it was the Duke of Sutherland, selling off what was called the Lilleshall estate, but seemed to cover a lot of NE Shropshire !

 

[Flatland guy]

they did go down the compulsory purchase route, we had no choice other than to sell , its not above market price

Ohh, just presumed they used the threat of compulsory purchase, it appears they did even go through the compulsory process route!! Just out of curiosity how long from you refusing to sell to compulsory purchase rights being granted was the timescale?

Market price, probably not for your area but around here probably double unless some creative accounting.

 

[jendan]

Yep, some massive Estate sales from about 1905 onwards. And again post-WW, the end of an era.

Around here it was the Duke of Sutherland, selling off what was called the Lilleshall estate, but seemed to cover a lot of NE Shropshire !

The landed gentry suffered very badly during the 1920s depression years along with their tenants. Many of their families would have lost members in the War as commissioned officers,which were most likely bought.

 

[Doing it for the kids]

Ohh, just presumed they used the threat of compulsory purchase, it appears they did even go through the compulsory process route!! Just out of curiosity how long from you refusing to sell to compulsory purchase rights being granted was the timescale?

Market price, probably not for your area but around here probably double unless some creative accounting.

CP is always the final resort as the legals involved are expensive. The trick is too push them as far as is possible before their legal bill will exceed their offer as such. They don’t usually mind paying up a bit more early on in the process if it saves them huge bills. They will go for the easy option

 

[Flatland guy]

CP is always the final resort as the legals involved are expensive. The trick is too push them as far as is possible before their legal bill will exceed their offer as such. They don’t usually mind paying up a bit more early on in the process if it saves them huge bills. They will go for the easy option

Trust me, I do know how the CP works, it is just that most people state it was CP purchased, when it never actually was, it is still classed as a voluntary agreement (with your hands and feet effectively tied together). But what annoys me the most is that the utility/infastructure scheme has already been working( feasability/ surveys/locations) at least two years before you even get wind of/hear anything about it, you start off on the back foot!

when we had to sell a bit compulsory purchase for the m6 toll we couldn’t replace land locally with the amount paid at the time - it’s never generous ime

I understand what you are saying here. it creates a property land bubble, other landowners are in the same position ( with money to rollover) and are all vying for the same land that becomes available, one may go over the odds to secure and negate their CGT position( of course other forms of rollover relief instead of land are permitted).

 

[warksfarmer]

Same around here.I was speaking to a local land agent,recently, on a social basis and land prices came up in the conversation. He said land prices in our area would be £20,000 to £25000/ac plus with insatiable demand led by roll over,expanding successful farmers and the fact that land is a safe,tax efficient, prudent investment.He also thought Government policies, around the World, with climate change, greening rewilding etc could lead to food shortages and some clever money thinks that as a result land prices may go up even more along with food prices.

Yep I agree with him and was laughed at 20 years ago on the old fwi and profi forums when I said £20,000/ac would be the norm. I’ve said it before but £30,000/ac is looming in the right place for bare farmland.

 

[neilo]

Land Agents will tell you anything. How on earth do they know what Reevonomics will look like ? She probably doesnt even know herself yet. If all this land is changing hands at £20,000/acre plus,then why dont the published averages show this ? There isnt a vast acreage sold every year,so even a few parcels at £20,000 would be bound to affect the average i would have thought.

One thing's for sure, no selling land agent (or estate agent) has ever advised to NOT buy land, or talked the price down. When they're earning commission on a %age basis, it's in their interests to see prices going one way.

 

[midlandslad]

Are we likely to see much farm and land sold in 2023? With falling commodity prices, BPS dropping off a cliff and significantly higher borrowing costs, logic would say so.

 

[copse]

Are we likely to see much farm and land sold in 2023? With falling commodity prices, BPS dropping off a cliff and significantly higher borrowing costs, logic would say so.

Hopefully there will be more coming on to the market this year.

 

[Highashgrange]

Are we likely to see much farm and land sold in 2023? With falling commodity prices, BPS dropping off a cliff and significantly higher borrowing costs, logic would say so.

Two locals just come up near here. Both what would be classed as smaller units at 70ac and 90ac respectively. Both with relatively run down houses and buildings. Sealed bids offers over £20,500/acre and I know a few who are interested.
I also know of a private sale block of bare land that sold privately. 320ac made £6.5 million as my cousin sold it. He’s kept the house, buildings and 40ac for a new venture.