Worcester charollais

[Hughesy]

I thought it was a fair sale as you say. The private sales took a number of buyers out the equation meaning that I suspect most buyers would be able to secure their first choice with less competition. I know we sold a lamb at 800gns which the buyer had tried to buy at home. He told me afterwards that he didn't expect to get him at that price and had been prepared to go a lot more for him. But you always win some and lose some. Got 1000gns for another so not too bad in the circumstances. Overall thought their were a few good sheep there but a lot with far too much wool for my liking. The Foxhill and Bronwydd lambs were standouts for me.

I just wanted to say thanks for you kind words. I really appreciate them in what’s been a difficult season for all. I kept my best lambs to sell at the sale, which was a gamble but I felt it was the right thing to do.
I know there is often a lot of negativity on here regarding this type of breed sale, but it would like to assure you all that there are many of us that work hard, very hard to prepare tups in a responsible way, with commercial customers in mind and hoping to take the breed in forwards direction. Fleshing, carcass and skins sell at sales commercial and breed sales in my opinion, as they should. The two are linked and rightly so. These traits carry a constant premium at all levels.

 

[neilo]

I just wanted to say thanks for you kind words. I really appreciate them in what’s been a difficult season for all. I kept my best lambs to sell at the sale, which was a gamble but I felt it was the right thing to do.
I know there is often a lot of negativity on here regarding this type of breed sale, but it would like to assure you all that there are many of us that work hard, very hard to prepare tups in a responsible way, with commercial customers in mind and hoping to take the breed in forwards direction. Fleshing, carcass and skins sell at sales commercial and breed sales in my opinion, as they should. The two are linked and rightly so. These traits carry a constant premium at all levels.

Your lambs did look well @Hughesy , and you were rewarded for making the difficult decision of holding them for the sale.?

However, there is no way that there is any link between the production of lambs hitting peak condition and 110kg at only 8 months of age, and the production of fat lambs out of mule ewes on a grass based system. It’s a different world, and those worlds are diverging more each year, across all the main terminal breeds. That’s the very reason the Suffolk fell from grace, and the continental imports took over. It seems history teaches us nothing.

 

[Ysgythan]

Here goes ???

 

[andybk]

Your lambs did look well @Hughesy , and you were rewarded for making the difficult decision of holding them for the sale.?

However, there is no way that there is any link between the production of lambs hitting peak condition and 110kg at only 8 months of age, and the production of fat lambs out of mule ewes on a grass based system. It’s a different world, and those worlds are diverging more each year, across all the main terminal breeds. That’s the very reason the Suffolk fell from grace, and the continental imports took over. It seems history teaches us nothing.

yes and the more you get into selling very commercial stock in any number to the same people every year the more you realise how far away the pedigree circles are getting from that easy 40-45kg market from a suff mule off old pasture , Information is getting easier to obtain and utilise for fat producers with electronic recording and deadweight selling , Pedigree producers will need to up their game at some point to make their own data more relevant to the market place ,

 

[neilo]

yes and the more you get into selling very commercial stock in any number to the same people every year the more you realise how far away the pedigree circles are getting from that easy 40-45kg market from a suff mule off old pasture , Information is getting easier to obtain and utilise for fat producers with electronic recording and deadweight selling , Pedigree producers will need to up their game at some point to make their own data more relevant to the market place ,

The extra information being collected from RamCompare, and the bolt on ChazCompare, is throwing up a few interesting bits already. The variation between lamb survival (from scanning to slaughter) between different lines, even within a breed, has surprised me and I’ve only seen a few snippets as yet. It’s surprising what you find out when you start collecting data on such things.

But again, it has bugger all relevance to the production of cracking 110kg lambs for the ‘pedigree’ sector.

 

[andybk]

The extra information being collected from RamCompare, and the bolt on ChazCompare, is throwing up a few interesting bits already. The variation between lamb survival (from scanning to slaughter) between different lines, even within a breed, has surprised me and I’ve only seen a few snippets as yet. It’s surprising what you find out when you start collecting data on such things.

But again, it has bugger all relevance to the production of cracking 110kg lambs for the ‘pedigree’ sector.

the NZ data threw a lot up as well regard survivability of some lines that on paper were the ones to use .

 

[Hughesy]

Whilst I understand your point. These lambs were also selected at 8-12wks at finished weights to be kept as breeding rams. Everything else is culled.
Their sisters are grown on from that point with no supplementary feed in order to know that the genetics work on grass based commercial system. Anything that does not perform is culled.
A very small number of rams are fed on for the one or two elite sales. The rest sold from home receive very little. These sales are a shop window.

 

[Hughesy]

Whilst I agree with you two gentlemen about recording and collecting data. It depends why you do it. If you collect data to improve the data, then it is of little relevance. If you do it to improve the sheep then it is. One of my frustration with the current recording system is that a high index animal bred to another will have a high index, regardless of many of its physical traits. Therefore the temptation is to seek data and follow that process, disregarding the physical/structural traits.
Anyway I don’t want to get into another debate in which I’ll be outnumbered and under fire. I just posted the thank sheepwise for his kind words and try to defend the sale a little. My goal is always to breed better sheep that perform for my customers pedigree and commercial. Saturday was one of the good days, we all need the odd one of those now and again to help us get up in the morning!!

 

[Joe]

Whilst I understand your point. These lambs were also selected at 8-12wks at finished weights to be kept as breeding rams. Everything else is culled.
Their sisters are grown on from that point with no supplementary feed in order to know that the genetics work on grass based commercial system. Anything that does not perform is culled.
A very small number of rams are fed on for the one or two elite sales. The rest sold from home receive very little. These sales are a shop window.

one good thing from this conversation is I know who you are now @Hughesy We had a right chat in Builth few years ago, well done last week btw ?

 

[neilo]

Whilst I agree with you two gentlemen about recording and collecting data. It depends why you do it. If you collect data to improve the data, then it is of little relevance. If you do it to improve the sheep then it is. One of my frustration with the current recording system is that a high index animal bred to another will have a high index, regardless of many of its physical traits. Therefore the temptation is to seek data and follow that process, disregarding the physical/structural traits.
Anyway I don’t want to get into another debate in which I’ll be outnumbered and under fire. I just posted the thank sheepwise for his kind words and try to defend the sale a little. My goal is always to breed better sheep that perform for my customers pedigree and commercial. Saturday was one of the good days, we all need the odd one of those now and again to help us get up in the morning!!

The argument has been done to death already but, IF a high index animal has superior performance, would it not be sensible to expect a high performance animal bred to a high performance animal, to breed a high performance lamb? I would suggest there’s something wrong if it didn’t.

Head carriage, character, breed type, wool quality, etc are cosmetic traits, but are equally heritable and can be selected & bred for too, but they ultimately have little relevance to fat lamb production in the real world.

 

[Top Tip.]

The argument has been done to death already but, IF a high index animal has superior performance, would it not be sensible to expect a high performance animal bred to a high performance animal, to breed a high performance lamb? I would suggest there’s something wrong if it didn’t.

Head carriage, character, breed type, wool quality, etc are cosmetic traits, but are equally heritable and can be selected & bred for too, but they ultimately have little relevance to fat lamb production in the real world.

I think in answer to your first paragraph ,you are having a laugh, that is how it works on the computer but the reality is different in that you are working with nature. Nature as you know is no respecter of figures. On your second paragraph if you sell your lambs through the store ring all these characteristics are the ones that enable you to get top dollar on the day . Ignore them at your peril.

 

[Hughesy]

The argument has been done to death already but, IF a high index animal has superior performance, would it not be sensible to expect a high performance animal bred to a high performance animal, to breed a high performance lamb? I would suggest there’s something wrong if it didn’t.

Head carriage, character, breed type, wool quality, etc are cosmetic traits, but are equally heritable and can be selected & bred for too, but they ultimately have little relevance to fat lamb production in the real world.

Totally agree, I have no problem if people choose to ignore these traits when selecting tups that is their personal choice. But those are not the physical traits that I was alluding to in my previous post, you have chosen those to illustrate your point.The traits I’m talking about are structural; particularly feet and legs, important to the working life of a ram, length, topline. I personally feel that these do not carry enough importance for some breeders when the figures are right.

 

[neilo]

I think in answer to your first paragraph ,you are having a laugh, that is how it works on the computer but the reality is different in that you are working with nature. Nature as you know is no respecter of figures. On your second paragraph if you sell your lambs through the store ring all these characteristics are the ones that enable you to get top dollar on the day . Ignore them at your peril.

Not having a laugh at all. If you breed a high performance (let’s take growth rate as one trait) animal with another of similarly high performance, would you not expect the progeny to be similarly strong in that trait?
It’s no different to selecting on subjective/non-measured traits, where you would hope for the progeny of two strong headed animals to breed similarly strong headed (to pick just one cosmetic trait). Is that what selective breeding is based on, whether the selection uses ebvs as a tool or not?

As to my second paragraph, I did say those cosmetic traits have nothing to do with FAT lamb production. Appealing to the buyers that pay ‘top dollar on the day’ in the store ring, is a whole different ball game of course, much as breeding to appeal to show judges is. It still has little or nothing to do with the economics of finished lamb production.

 

[andybk]

The argument has been done to death already but, IF a high index animal has superior performance, would it not be sensible to expect a high performance animal bred to a high performance animal, to breed a high performance lamb? I would suggest there’s something wrong if it didn’t.

Head carriage, character, breed type, wool quality, etc are cosmetic traits, but are equally heritable and can be selected & bred for too, but they ultimately have little relevance to fat lamb production in the real world.

after using french rams for a few years i would say their take , is the direct opposite of the uk , ie recording data is used more widely and taken much more notice of ,It really is a core part of the society and has been since the mid 70s .high index to high index , they have been doing the same as our ram compare for decades with the station rams even recording lots of data on female traits for a terminal breed across many commercial ewes , , looking at some of the station Ai sires you sometimes scratch your head as to why they are there , then you look at the figures and you see why ! , its almost regardless of all the cosmetic traits you listed . There is a core of breeders now though that are making great strides into sheep that have the cosmetic and commercial performance well embedded in their flocks .these tend to attract the most interest for export . but first and foremost they use the figures . I will say the rams i bought do produce the commercial goods at a commercial weight ,but its very difficult to buy a ram with that cosmetic sparkle that you find at uk sales .which to many is more important regardless of peformance .

 

[andybk]

I think in answer to your first paragraph ,you are having a laugh, that is how it works on the computer but the reality is different in that you are working with nature. Nature as you know is no respecter of figures. On your second paragraph if you sell your lambs through the store ring all these characteristics are the ones that enable you to get top dollar on the day . Ignore them at your peril.

You have it in one there , "people selling store lambs " if all your lambs were sold fat you would use a different type im sure ,(its not a criticism im well aware of how the uk sheep market works ) There is no (or minimal) store trade in europe thats why the continentals made great inroads across all farm stock in the uk ,basically you breed it you finish it ! The store trade is what has caused most damage to the ram market .and why many farmers will always buy on cosmetic traits , finishing is someones elses problem

 

[Top Tip.]

Not having a laugh at all. If you breed a high performance (let’s take growth rate as one trait) animal with another of similarly high performance, would you not expect the progeny to be similarly strong in that trait?
It’s no different to selecting on subjective/non-measured traits, where you would hope for the progeny of two strong headed animals to breed similarly strong headed (to pick just one cosmetic trait). Is that what selective breeding is based on, whether the selection uses ebvs as a tool or not?

As to my second paragraph, I did say those cosmetic traits have nothing to do with FAT lamb production. Appealing to the buyers that pay ‘top dollar on the day’ in the store ring, is a whole different ball game of course, much as breeding to appeal to show judges is. It still has little or nothing to do with the economics of finished lamb production.

In my experience in breeding sheep , breeding two similar characteristics does not always give you the expected outcome . The skill in breeding is in the blending of characteristics.
Up here if you are selling sheep in the fat ring looks are as important as weight if you are going to get a premium on what you are selling. Try telling the buyers round the fat ring that the computer says.

 

[Joe]

You have it in one there , "people selling store lambs " if all your lambs were sold fat you would use a different type im sure ,(its not a criticism im well aware of how the uk sheep market works ) There is no (or minimal) store trade in europe thats why the continentals made great inroads across all farm stock in the uk ,basically you breed it you finish it ! The store trade is what has caused most damage to the ram market .and why many farmers will always buy on cosmetic traits , finishing is someones elses problem

This is an argument I ve made for years here. Sheep sector in Ireland is different than UK in that higher proportion of stock go direct to factory and not via marts. Buyers from me are nearly 100% finishers, while still get smaller flocks who look at size all others use both figures and other fat lamb characteristics.

 

[Ysgythan]

Anyway I don’t want to get into another debate in which I’ll be outnumbered and under fire.

just remember this isn’t the real world, it’s a very peculiar bubble.

llongyfarchiadau.

 

[neilo]

just remember this isn’t the real world, it’s a very peculiar bubble.

llongyfarchiadau.

You keep telling yourself that.?

Innovis, Easyrams, (to a lesser extent) Logie Durno, and lots of individual breeders have all built customer bases in a relatively short space of time, all on the basis of tups that are reared naturally and selected for those systems.

 

[glensman]

You keep telling yourself that.[emoji106]

Innovis, Easyrams, (to a lesser extent) Logie Durno, and lots of individual breeders have all built customer bases in a relatively short space of time, all on the basis of tups that are reared naturally and selected for those systems.

Though to be fair to @Hughesy he says that is more or less how he produces the majority of his rams.